It does seem like we are just missing each other's points. What I'll try to do is tell you my point as concisely as I can. Then I'll expound on it a bit, and finally I'd like to adress some of the things you said in the last post. So here goes...
I have a real problem with the idea of eternal punishment. I have a problem with it rationally, and I have a problem with it biblically. You've expounded quite a bit on salvation and forgiveness, and I'd say you've done pretty well. But my problem comes in with what happens when people reject God's offer of forgiveness. You said you were curious where I came up with the idea that forgiven sin required punishment. But I never said that. I said sin required punishment. If we are forgiven, it's because Jesus was punished for our sins and we have accepted that. At that point, obviously, we are not punished for it. So Jesus is punished in our stead, or we deny it and take punishment ourselves. Why are the two punishments so fundamentally different? If unbelievers are supposed to suffer eternally, then Jesus would have had to as well, else he didn't really take our punishment. Also, I said earlier that even if I sinned my entire life, eternity does not become just punishment. You gave examples about white lies and other sins and asked me what would be just. But I don't have to have the answer to that. I'm not God. I also used twice the example of my children going wrong and how though I could see myself having to kill them in the most extreme circumstance, I would never have to torture them for the rest of their lives. What would God get out of us being tortured forever? And while we're at it, we can put to rest the cartoon image of Satan sticking us with his pitchfork every chance he gets. The prophecies are clear that he will receive his own judgment. I hope you at least understand where I'm coming from now. Now to address some of the things you said in the last post.
You wrote the following: "The attribute of God that I can't get away from is not wrath, but love. God gives second chances repeatedly over the course of the Old and New Testament. Those second chances are a testament to God's love. God's wrath is only evident when despite repeated chances, warnings, etc. People still refuse to consider doing what is right. We don't see God destroying people on their first sin or their 100th sin, instead it only happens when people do not heed the warnings that God provides."
I didn't say the attribute, I said one of the attributes. You might like God's love more than His wrath, but his wrath exists all the same. If we pick one attribute to focus on we miss part of who God is. He is love. He is just. He is jealous. He is fearsome. Any picking and choosing we do just leads to a skewed vision of who God is. You said we don't see God destroying people on their first or 100th sin. I could say that is because people sin all the time, so the frame of reference for people in the Bible who sin only once would be nil. But consider David. He was a man after God's own heart, we are told. The first instance we get of him sinning is with Bathsheba. And what happened? God killed his son. How many times did Adam and Eve sin before God cursed them? I am not saying that God does not forgive, I am saying that his wrath can be evident even though he forgives. Now this doesn't pertain to my view on eternal punishment per se, but I wanted to address it.
I want to say again that I appreciate your responses and sincerely hope this finds you well.
Re: What God is offering
It does seem like we are just missing each other's points. What I'll try to do is tell you my point as concisely as I can. Then I'll expound on it a bit, and finally I'd like to adress some of the things you said in the last post. So here goes...
I have a real problem with the idea of eternal punishment. I have a problem with it rationally, and I have a problem with it biblically. You've expounded quite a bit on salvation and forgiveness, and I'd say you've done pretty well. But my problem comes in with what happens when people reject God's offer of forgiveness. You said you were curious where I came up with the idea that forgiven sin required punishment. But I never said that. I said sin required punishment. If we are forgiven, it's because Jesus was punished for our sins and we have accepted that. At that point, obviously, we are not punished for it. So Jesus is punished in our stead, or we deny it and take punishment ourselves. Why are the two punishments so fundamentally different? If unbelievers are supposed to suffer eternally, then Jesus would have had to as well, else he didn't really take our punishment. Also, I said earlier that even if I sinned my entire life, eternity does not become just punishment. You gave examples about white lies and other sins and asked me what would be just. But I don't have to have the answer to that. I'm not God. I also used twice the example of my children going wrong and how though I could see myself having to kill them in the most extreme circumstance, I would never have to torture them for the rest of their lives. What would God get out of us being tortured forever? And while we're at it, we can put to rest the cartoon image of Satan sticking us with his pitchfork every chance he gets. The prophecies are clear that he will receive his own judgment. I hope you at least understand where I'm coming from now. Now to address some of the things you said in the last post.
You wrote the following:
"The attribute of God that I can't get away from is not wrath, but love. God gives second chances repeatedly over the course of the Old and New Testament. Those second chances are a testament to God's love. God's wrath is only evident when despite repeated chances, warnings, etc. People still refuse to consider doing what is right. We don't see God destroying people on their first sin or their 100th sin, instead it only happens when people do not heed the warnings that God provides."
I didn't say the attribute, I said one of the attributes. You might like God's love more than His wrath, but his wrath exists all the same. If we pick one attribute to focus on we miss part of who God is. He is love. He is just. He is jealous. He is fearsome. Any picking and choosing we do just leads to a skewed vision of who God is. You said we don't see God destroying people on their first or 100th sin. I could say that is because people sin all the time, so the frame of reference for people in the Bible who sin only once would be nil. But consider David. He was a man after God's own heart, we are told. The first instance we get of him sinning is with Bathsheba. And what happened? God killed his son. How many times did Adam and Eve sin before God cursed them? I am not saying that God does not forgive, I am saying that his wrath can be evident even though he forgives. Now this doesn't pertain to my view on eternal punishment per se, but I wanted to address it.
I want to say again that I appreciate your responses and sincerely hope this finds you well.
Darryl