I understand your problem with the idea of eternal punishment. I submit that part of the reason for this is that you, like many people, see the people who will be subject to this as "regular folks". They are people, just like you and I, who made the "mistake" of not believing the right way. To that I submit that if we were to look at "regular folks", our lives are filled with sin. Some sins, as humans measure them, are small, and some large, but they are prevalent in our lives and occur every day. You've got thieves, murderers, rapists, etc. out there, and in fact, the sin that you and I commit is no less serious. People can die because of a white lie or shoplifting. If we're lucky, nobody will die because of one of our sins, but we don't know for sure and we do it anyway knowing that it could happen. I'm not saying that we don't try our best and try to do some good, but at the end, we are still sinners, believers and nonbelievers alike, and none of us have the "right" to an eternal reward for our actions.
Let's speculate, for a moment that instead of eternal punishment, God simply ignores those people who don't believe. That at the white throne judgment, when it becomes obvious to everyone that God is real, God separates those who didn't believe and simply doesn't allow them to enter into God's presence. The whole of existence would be beautiful and splendorous for the believers. They would be in the presence of God, and blessings would flow. The nonbelievers would be unable to experience God's presence, stuck in some sort of gray limbo they would be unable to participate in the experiences or blessings that God gives. Would that be any less punishment? Sure, they don't get tossed into a fire, but outside of that, the result would be the same, isolation from God, because isolation from God is the true punishment, and yes, it would last forever because that is what they chose. They didn't want God. They didn't want forgiveness. They didn't want to even consider it, so they chose that isolation. Of course the Scriptures say that there will be a lake of fire and that is absolute, because that is the binary nature of sin. As you wrote when I asked what a reasonable punishment would be, neither you, nor I are God.
You mention God's wrath, and yes, that is part of God's nature and I admitted as much in my post, but it is still true that it comes only after repeated rejection of God. This rejection is a choice. Adam and Eve were exiled from Eden because of their choices, but they were still given long lives and opportunities to reconnect with God. David's son died of illness because of David's choices (including adultery, lying, the murder of Uriah and hypocrisy about it all), but David still had the opportunity to return to a relationship with God. God's wrath is short lived and we have the opportunity to return to a relationship with God as long as we are alive. God also knows when someone is never going to choose that relationship, and when that happens, the consequences are absolute because that is the binary nature of sin.
At the end, whether we like it or not, there's no escaping the fact that the framework was established by God and it is the reality that we have to deal with. We're not discussing whether or not we should create an amendment and have a vote on it, we're simply saying that we don't like the outcome for those who choose not to follow Jesus. I don't like the outcome any more than you do, although I cannot conceive of any reasonable alternative that would somehow be better. I can, however accept it as "just" because of the freedom that people have to make their choices and the fact that they knew the consequences of those choices and still made them.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: What God is offering
Date: 2010-10-21 01:36 am (UTC)--continued from above
I understand your problem with the idea of eternal punishment. I submit that part of the reason for this is that you, like many people, see the people who will be subject to this as "regular folks". They are people, just like you and I, who made the "mistake" of not believing the right way. To that I submit that if we were to look at "regular folks", our lives are filled with sin. Some sins, as humans measure them, are small, and some large, but they are prevalent in our lives and occur every day. You've got thieves, murderers, rapists, etc. out there, and in fact, the sin that you and I commit is no less serious. People can die because of a white lie or shoplifting. If we're lucky, nobody will die because of one of our sins, but we don't know for sure and we do it anyway knowing that it could happen. I'm not saying that we don't try our best and try to do some good, but at the end, we are still sinners, believers and nonbelievers alike, and none of us have the "right" to an eternal reward for our actions.
Let's speculate, for a moment that instead of eternal punishment, God simply ignores those people who don't believe. That at the white throne judgment, when it becomes obvious to everyone that God is real, God separates those who didn't believe and simply doesn't allow them to enter into God's presence. The whole of existence would be beautiful and splendorous for the believers. They would be in the presence of God, and blessings would flow. The nonbelievers would be unable to experience God's presence, stuck in some sort of gray limbo they would be unable to participate in the experiences or blessings that God gives. Would that be any less punishment? Sure, they don't get tossed into a fire, but outside of that, the result would be the same, isolation from God, because isolation from God is the true punishment, and yes, it would last forever because that is what they chose. They didn't want God. They didn't want forgiveness. They didn't want to even consider it, so they chose that isolation. Of course the Scriptures say that there will be a lake of fire and that is absolute, because that is the binary nature of sin. As you wrote when I asked what a reasonable punishment would be, neither you, nor I are God.
You mention God's wrath, and yes, that is part of God's nature and I admitted as much in my post, but it is still true that it comes only after repeated rejection of God. This rejection is a choice. Adam and Eve were exiled from Eden because of their choices, but they were still given long lives and opportunities to reconnect with God. David's son died of illness because of David's choices (including adultery, lying, the murder of Uriah and hypocrisy about it all), but David still had the opportunity to return to a relationship with God. God's wrath is short lived and we have the opportunity to return to a relationship with God as long as we are alive. God also knows when someone is never going to choose that relationship, and when that happens, the consequences are absolute because that is the binary nature of sin.
At the end, whether we like it or not, there's no escaping the fact that the framework was established by God and it is the reality that we have to deal with. We're not discussing whether or not we should create an amendment and have a vote on it, we're simply saying that we don't like the outcome for those who choose not to follow Jesus. I don't like the outcome any more than you do, although I cannot conceive of any reasonable alternative that would somehow be better. I can, however accept it as "just" because of the freedom that people have to make their choices and the fact that they knew the consequences of those choices and still made them.
-- Jeff