Ezekiel 18-20

[wolfpurplemoon]

God has decided that the children shouldn't suffer for the sins of their parents any longer, why did he say that they should before? This sort of indecisiveness doesn't seem right in an all-knowing deity.

OK, so let me get this straight, a wicked person will die/suffer for their sins, unless they decide to turn away from their sin and do what is just. So, how long can you spend being sinful before the punishment kicks in, because once you're dead you're not going to be able to turn from your sin and become righteous, surely. And just how righteous do you have to become and how long for in order to correct the wrong God thinks you committed?

I haven't even got that straight and now apparently if you're righteous and then start being wicked then you'll die and your righteous acts are not taken into account, which makes even less sense. So, the moral of the tale seems to be, start out bad and become good, not the other way round. I agree with the house of Israel that this is unjust, and God's answer to that charge is not actually an answer because he just calls them unjust back and assures them he takes no pleasure in the deaths of anyone, wicked or good.

Comments

IMHO

[hypatiaslore.livejournal.com]

Ok. I think I can help with the explanation of the parable part in Ek. 19. Well, I can give you some interpretive literary perspective, at least. lol

So, the comparison being made here between the Kingdom of Judah and a Lioness. The Kings of Judah are likened to the Lioness' cubs, which groomed to rule became young lions and during their reign went out into their kingdoms became cruel, oppressive and destructive, even unto their own subjects. This can be both an allegory of the past, but also a warning to the kings of the future for those who may enact such cruelty from a position of power in the future by not following the commands of God. The next parable goes on to describe what happens from insubordination.

Regarding the Vineyard allegory, here there is a perfect summary of recent events. The description of their past when they were "well-behaved", i.e. the watered plant. The plant was flourishing with the branches, strong and suited for kings scepters, meaning the people, since they were submissive, had been cultivated to be the kind of kings that would be compliant to god's demands.

Then they were moved to the dry and thirsty land of the desert because of their disobedience of the mandates they had been given. So the pool from which God had to choose a deferential king was fairly non-existent, giving them even less of an ability to have a good leader to "shepherd" them back to the acquiescent lifestyle.

The last sentence reminds me of when people write cat macros like,"Nosy cat is Nosy" or something, because its like, Lament song is a lament song. LOL


This is just from a literary perspective, obviously; not a commentary on what I would think if there were a deity that actually behaved in this way.

[zen-says.livejournal.com]

Dear wolf,

since you have read to Eze... you question about punishment and sins, did you realise that:

1. you can be punished for the sins of your father (punish up to 3rd-4th generations)

2. you can be punished for your kings' sin

3. you can be punish for the nations' sin

4. and you can be punish for the sins of the previous king because God decides to overlook this generation sin due to He showed favoritism to a certain current king.

and maybe you be punished for your own sin, or the original sin,,,,

not really a win/win situation is it?

[zen-says.livejournal.com]

20:26 I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn [a]

[a] : Or -making every firstborn pass through the fire

this God make his worshippers to sacrifice their first born (passing through fire)? wow

[zteccc.livejournal.com]

At the time, the Israelites believed that if someone was having hardships, and they followed the covenant and were otherwise generally good people, that the hardship must be because something that their parents did. There isn't any foundation for this belief, but it was a common belief throughout many cultures around Israel, and it was likely something brought from a neighboring country (or perhaps even from the time that Israel was captive in Egypt). It certainly would hold true that if a father were to choose poorly in life (e.g. if the father was a gambler who ran up huge gambling debts), those debts, from a legal perspective, would be the responsibility of future generations. Typically the verses that people use to support an actually cause/effect relationship of a father's sins causing problems for the children are taken out of context, that is why it is so very important for someone reading scripture to attempt to understand the context, both linguistically and historically before jumping to conclusions about meanings.
Ezekiel is given the parable of three generations of men, grandfather, father and son, whose rewards or punishments are dependent on their own actions. This is consistent with the rest of scripture, however it ran contrary to a common belief, at that time, of how God works.
The language in this story talks about them being put to death. It has less to do with physical life than with spiritual. A sinner who is unrepentant will not have a positive spiritual outcome (everlasting life, Paradise, Heaven, etc.).
God then says that those who repent, who willingly turn toward God, will be forgiven. This is God's Mercy (mercy is sometimes defined as giving someone a second chance, even if they don't deserve it). Similarly, a person, knowing what is right, who willfully turns away from what is right (chooses to turn away form God) will not be forgiven.
This section deals with life choices. Everyone sins, it is how we face that reality that matters. If we choose to reject God's forgiveness (e.g. if we choose to walk away from God as a path for our lives), then yes, we will die (physically and spiritually). If we choose to seek God's forgiveness, then even if we make mistakes, we will live spiritually, forever, even if we die physically.
The people of Israel thought that it wasn't fair that someone who had committed a "big" sin could be forgiven. They also thought that if they did enough good things, that should be enough, however they ignored the intent of the heart (not the physical muscle in our bodies, but the willful decisions made about the core of our existence). God is telling them that because their hearts weren't right, the things they did didn't really matter.
At the end, God is saying that it isn't really about the things they've done, one way or another, it is about their life decisions, such as desiring to follow God that really matter.
Said another way, it isn't about stocking up "brownie points" with God. We don't get points for doing good things, then lose them for doing bad, hoping that we keep a positive balance. Instead, God wants our hearts to be focused on following God, and if we are thus focused, we will do good things generally. If we come to that focus later in life, after doing countless bad things, God is saying that it is never too late for God to forgive. If, on the other hand, we do good things, but decide to turn away and sin, our prior good works aren't enough to save us because our heart decision wasn't in the right direction.

[zteccc.livejournal.com]

Ezekiel is told to sing a funeral song (another visual/allegorical song) for two of Israel's leaders. the first is defeated and taken to Egypt, the second to Babylon. These are likely Jehoahaz and Zedekiah. Jehoahaz was taken to Egypt by Pharaoh Necho II after turning away from his father, Josiah's reforms. Zedekiah was king at the time that Ezekiel made this prophecy, but Ezekiel was predicting his being taken to Babylon because he didn't follow God. The second could also be Jehoiachin. It doesn't really matter so much which the allegory points to. The point is that although they are represented as mighty lions, feared by all, that power didn't save them from God's prophecies.
The passage about the vine is allegorical to all of Israel. The vine was clearly above all other plants, but that status didn't mean that the vine was immune, the covenant was broken willfully, and eventually the consequence would occur.

Chapter 20 is 4 years prior to the fall of Jerusalem. The leaders, acknowledging that Ezekiel is a true prophet of God, come for a message. God says to remind them of the cycle of Israel's rebellion and God's forgiveness towards Israel for the past 1,000 years. That the people during this time chose to worship idols, chose to follow customs of neighboring nations including sacrificing their firstborn children (even to God) in direct disobedience of God's own prohibition against such worship of idols and such sacrifices. Even at the time that they came to Ezekiel, they continue to persist in worshiping idols as well. God wants Ezekiel to remind them that until they stop this, God will not give them any positive message.
God repeats that Israel will be restored, but that the Israelites will worship God and not idols. Presumably this is because the idols, and the people who worshiped them would no longer be around. At this time, God was using the Babylonians and later other people, to wipe out all of the idol worship in Israel and the neighboring areas.
The allegory of the fire presumably refers to God's punishment against Judah and Jerusalem. The trees are the people, and the fire is the Babylonian attack that will cause the fall of Jerusalem (remember we're still 4 years prior to this happening). Ezekiel shows his humanity by complaining about having to do this (he says the message is too confusing). Presumably he still obeys, however, since we have the message.

Are you following YouVersion's Bible reading plan?

[http://www.google.com/profiles/n0zai1sheep (from livejournal.com)]

may I know which one it is? thanks (I'm going to choose one for me and find some reading partners.)