wolfbiblemoon

I'd be pretty angry if God killed a plant and put me in a fish, myself.

Where do these anonymous commenters find you,

wolfpurplemoon? And more importantly, why are they all anon? It reminds me of the internet fuckwad theory, only... different.

link to internet fuckward theory ;D (http://pics.livejournal.com/liedownlovely/pic/000r0er6)

Edited Date: 2010-11-02 06:08 am (UTC)

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I post links to my Twitter and to the bible site where my reading plan is and where I do my reading (it has lots of translations), it's not bible.com though. They're anon because they don't have LJs, but as Stacy below proved, it's possible to comment on LJ posts without an LJ!

They don't bother me much, it's interesting to hear some other points of view, most of them don't get very negative and most get bored and leave after a while.

As for Jonah - he's definitely a very human character, running away when God starts ordering him about and getting annoyed with the treatment he suffers, very understandable.

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It's the same messages I heard for more than 18 years, and still get from my parents to this day! It's like a broken record! I honestly wish someone would say something eye catching - then I could take them seriously.

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bill_sheehan.livejournal.com

I preached one of my very best sermons from Jonah. The takeaway was about the presumption that God hates the same people you do.

And hey - nobody gets slaughtered. It's a nice change of pace.

Anonymous coward who will probably never return to read this: do you really think God is complex? Complex things are the end product of millions of years of evolution, not the beginning. Wouldn't God have to be the simplest thing of all?

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stacy bell (from livejournal.com)

Where do these people find him? At Bible. Com

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Her, not him.

And where, exactly, is this community posted at Bible.com for feedback? I don't see anything.

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stacy bell (from livejournal.com)

Now you are flaming people and calling them cowards for trying to help you? Figures!

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Where does it say anyone wants help?

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To be more specific so you don't feel as though I'm flaming you, I believe the author's intent with this Bible reading, cover to cover, is to put down gut reactions and feelings about what she reads. Not to ask for help in doing so.

Perhaps help in understanding the text she is reading would be more beneficial than constant pressure to repent and pray? As in, your opinion of Jonah that you omitted because you suggested she ask "the source".

I certainly wouldn't feel more obligated to get to know god if the only thing Christians had to say about him was the same sing-song praise of his greatness and how terrible I am as a person because I don't believe. If you see an advert everywhere about how wonderful a product is, do you go out and buy it without questioning? Especially if it's expensive? The price we're negotiating here is supposedly eternal life.

That's just my thoughts. None of it actually reflects the author's true opinion, just what my assumptions are. And as we all know, assuming makes an "ass out of u and me".

From: (Anonymous)

Hello,I also struggle with the story of Jonah and God's punishment on his people but with the story of Jonah,he turned away from God and all those things happened to him and his reasons for turning away is because God will show mercy to the people of nineveh when they repent,it sounded almost as if Jonah was thinking of only himself.this is the way I understand the story and I hope u see my point, sometimes its hard to see the point but God is always faithful and merciful on those he loves.have a blessed week;)

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Obadiah probably lived in Judah during the fall of Jerusalem and the exile to Babylon, he prophesied against Edom in a manner similar to Ezekiel.
Verses 1-14 state that Edom will be destroyed because it didn't support Israel/Judah when it was attacked. Edom was descended from Esau, Jacob's brother, so Edom should have come to their relatives' aid when attacked, but they instead didn't help (or depending on one's view of things, helped the invaders).
Verses 15-21 refers to the day of the Lord. This is apocalyptic prophecy of the end times. Edom and Philistia will be destroyed (nobody today can claim to be from Edom or Philistia).

Jonah's prophecy takes place somewhere around 780BC (during the reign of Jeroboam II). Jonah is sent, to prophecy not to the kingdom of Israel, but to the city of Nineveh, the capital of Assyria which is rising in power. The book of Jonah is likely written after the events, however Jonah is referred to in II Kings 14:25, so we can date the events.

Chapter 1
Jonah is told to go to Nineveh, he refuses and runs the other way on a ship. There is a great storm and the sailors cast lots and determine that Jonah is the cause of the problem. Jonah admits that he is running from God's orders and asks them to throw him into the sea to calm the storm. They eventually do so and the sea is calmed. Jonah is swallowed by a fish and remains there for three days.
Chapter 2
Jonah prays from inside the fish. He apologizes for running and acknowledges his sin. God forgives Jonah and Jonah is spit out onto the beach. Miracles are the only way to account for this, but miracles don't have to follow science for them to be true.
Chapter 3
Jonah obeys God's order to go to Nineveh. He began to preach that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days. The Ninevites believed Jonah (oddly enough, it is easier for foreigners to believe prophets than Israel or Judah, perhaps due to them not being wrapped up in being the chosen people). The king of Nineveh called for a fast and prayer to God. God responded with compassion (compare this to all of the prophets in Israel/Judah and the fact that those people didn't turn from their sins and repent).
Chapter 4
Jonah is angry that God didn't destroy Nineveh (the Assyrians and Israelites didn't like each other, so Jonah was probably looking forward to Nineveh being destroyed). Jonah sits outside of town waiting to see what might happen and God provides a vine to shade Jonah. The next day, the vine is destroyed by a worm. The day is hot and Jonah declares that it would be better if he died. God says that Jonah is being selfish about things that he had no right to. God created the vine and then allowed it to die, Jonah didn't do any work to make it happen, Jonah shouldn't have felt any entitlement to it (compare with the "chosen people" entitlement). Jonah had pity on the vine and thought it should survive, but didn't have any compassion for the people of Nineveh who he wanted to see destroyed. Nineveh had many people, and God cared about them and doesn't want to destroy them (especially since they turned from their sin).

The point of the Jonah story is God's compassion and mercy. No sin in the story was too great to be forgiven. God gives Jonah a second chance after Jonah ran. God calms the seas and the sailors survived after they obeyed. God gives the Ninevites a second chance after they fasted and prayed.

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OK, so you are telling me that you believe that Jonah's tale actually happened? So, what sort of fish did he get swallowed by?

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Well, obviously one prepared by God (Jonah 1:17). The scripture doesn't specify a species, and it isn't relevant.

Whether this really happened, or whether this is allegorical is of little import to the message in the book of Jonah (although yes, I do believe it did happen and it is somewhat relevant later on), however I do believe that this is no bigger of a miracle than Daniel knowing the king's dream and interpreting it without anyone telling him what it was; no bigger than Daniel surviving the Lion's den without a scratch and no bigger than Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego surviving the furnace (where the soldiers who threw them in were killed due to the heat), without a singed hair or the smell of smoke on their clothing. Somehow you didn't object to these miracles. Miracles like these, and others in scripture are accepted by faith, and I do accept that if God "prepared a great fish"(NKJV) to swallow Jonah, part of that preparation would have been preparation for Jonah to survive three days. That sort of protection would be consistent with God's actions regarding his prophets just as God protected Elijah by sending fire down to consume several squads of soldiers who had been sent to kill him. Just as God provided food for Elisha and the Shumanite woman and her son.

-- Jeff

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Well I certainly don't believe any of those other miracles really happened either, sorry if I somehow gave you the impression I was more happy with those than with Jonah, Jonah just seems that much more ridiculous probably because of my strong interest and education in Biology and Zoology. I can't begin to imagine a fish that could swallow a human whole let alone one that a human could live inside for any length of time.

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You didn't give the impression that you believed them, but the point I was making is that if God can do one of them, then God can do all of them.

Consider Elijah and the fire called down from heaven, several times, to defeat solders sent against him. If the fire didn't happen, then what happened to the soldiers? One can always say that the whole story is a fabrication, but if that is the case, then what is it doing in the book of Kings, which is written as a history (much of which is verified archaeologically). The Old Testament was written by many authors over centuries (verified by the different writing styles, time line references, old texts, etc.), so there is simply no chance that they could have conspired together make up a consistent story of God, yet that is what is presented.

I too have an interest in Biology and Zoology (much more in Mathematics, Physics and Computers). I have a bachelor's degree in Math and a bachelor's degree in Computer Science, so I have a fair knowledge of science and the way it works. Science, however, has a few blind spots. Science is limited only to what can be seen, felt, measured, etc. It is also limited by time. It cannot, for example, prove anything in the past, it can only theorize on what may have happened in the past. As a result, science can never prove what happened at the beginning of the universe, it can only theorize. Similarly, science cannot address anything supernatural (beyond natural) because it is limited to only the natural (what can be seen, felt, measured, etc.). Science does, however, lead to an inescapable conclusion that supernatural does exist. Quantum mechanics are one attempt to use some sort of pseudoscience to explain parts of the supernatural, but even that has some holes. Nonetheless, quantum mechanics wouldn't rule out fire from the sky, a man living in a fish, men surviving a furnace, etc. If quantum mechanics, which is being pursued by scientists, can't rule it out, then it can't be ruled out.

More to the point, however, God is not limited by the natural world. God can interact in a super-natural fashion and make such things that are "impossible" happen. I'm not saying that God works through quantum mechanics, that would be too limiting, I'm saying that the rules that you are trying to impose on the situation when you call upon science like Zoology and Biology, don't apply.

-- Jeff

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Science's limitations don't mean that religion automatically becomes right.

I agree, us mere humans are limited by our brains, but look how much we've learnt and worked out since the bible was written, and imagine how much more we will know in another 2,000 years, that's far more exciting than saying that your God can do stuff that we would consider impossible.

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I wasn't claiming that science's failings automatically validated faith (note that I'll rarely talk about religion, but faith, there is a difference), I was simply addressing your reliance on science as the arbiter of what is possible.

Yes, we've learned much, and yet none of it has disproven a faith in God or the existence of God. Of course that is unfair because science cannot address the existence of God either positively or negatively, but that, in essence is my point. Science, and what we "learn" or "know" is incapable of addressing matters of faith. I look at science as a tool of great value to help explain the natural, but faith is a tool of great value to explain the super-natural (yes, I can make a scientific case for the supernatural, but that is beyond the scope of the scriptural reading, perhaps we'll discuss that as a sidebar).

We all are creatures of faith and accept things daily on faith. I'm not talking about religion here, or faith in a specific deity, but we all have faith in many things. We have faith in the technical prowess of those who design our buildings (we hope they graduated architecture school). We have faith in the pilot who flies our airplane (we hope that he hasn't been drinking). We have faith in the knowledge of our scientists and we also have faith that they are being intellectually honest (many of them, sadly, are not). We have faith that a previously undetected meteor won't collide with our planet tomorrow (which is proven by our making plans for next Thursday). We choose where we place our faith and we don't even call it faith, but yet it is faith because we cannot prove (scientifically) most of the things we trust in each day.

As you said, we've learned much in 2,000 years, and yet the scriptures are just as applicable to our lives today as they were when they were written. We've learned more facts, but we haven't changed much as people. 2,000 years ago, there were skeptics, just as there are today. I, myself, have questioned my beliefs and have worked to reconcile myself with them. I fully understand your objections and yet have come to a different conclusion. My conclusion may not work for you, and it isn't my intent to force you to accept my conclusion, I only hope that we'll be able to continue the discussion as openly and honestly as we have so far.

-- Jeff

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zen-says.livejournal.com

jonah prophesied nineveh to be destroyed in 40 days and it did not come true. technically he should be put to death for a failed prophecy.

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They had a strange sense of humour back then, although I'm sure it's mostly lost in translation. What really amuses me is people who swear that these stories are true when even the writers didn't intend them to be so.

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stacy bell (from livejournal.com)

They don't get bored and leave! You run them off by the things you say! I don't care if you flame me..have at it. Nothing boring about the Word. I can hardly wait until you get to the new testament.

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You seem to be very concerned with people "flaming" you to the point where you're missing the discussion altogether. No one has or is flaming you. When they do, you'll know it. There will be pictures of cats with text and lots of swearing.

Still interested in your opinion about the book of Jonah.

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sin-eater.livejournal.com

They don't care about giving opinions. They'd rather hold tight to their injured feewings that someone disagrees with their worldview and feel unfairly oppressed than actually have an intelligent discussion.

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