Proverbs 16-18

[wolfpurplemoon]

OK, all of you who were telling me that God didn't make wicked/evil people, that it's just our choices that lead us to wicked paths, what about 16:4? "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." or "The Lord works everything for its own endst – even the wicked for the day of disaster." So God made wicked people that way, but punishes them anyway.

Kings seem to have the same demands as God, funny that...

Apparently, that 'pride goes before a fall' saying is a slight paraphrase of 16:18

17:28 could also be "It's better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and prove it."

I couldn't see anything new to pick out of Proverb 18, some of it is good, though common sense, advice.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not sure that it's saying that God made the people evil or wicked. I'm thinking (and I could be totally wrong, because I'm still a relatively new believer) that they mean that God made the people... and then they turned evil or wicked. He didn't make them evil... he just made them.

Again, I could be totally wrong on that, but that's what I'm guessing.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh... woops. I meant to sign that last post.

~Kevin

Wicked people...

[(Anonymous)]

I tend to agree with Kevin. I've been a believer since 1987 and I certainly don't know all there is to know but I do know that the Bible is filled with what looks like contradictions to doctrine, but this simply comes from the Word's translation from it's original language into our own. One really has to study to understand. That being said, the Word says that God made all things good. Evil is not good but because of the fall it is a choice-just like choosing God is a choice. I believe that this scripture is saying, "whether people choose to be good or evil, God made everyone for his good pleasure." It is just that the evil (should they choose to keep walking that way) are reserved for the day of judgment. And, that's my .20 cents worth!-Terrie

[wolfpurplemoon]

On this topic, I'm following the video blog of an ex-believer who's currently reading Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life and posting videos of her responses each day, in this book it says that God has made a plan of our entire lives before we are born. So by this logic, my reading of Proverb 16:4 must be true as God would have planned even the lives of people who become wicked.

Re: Wicked people...

[wolfpurplemoon]

I can accept that translation errors will have slipped in over the millennia, I'm not sure it can explain all the contradictions, but it's a start. See my comment to Kevin above for further thoughts on whether wicked people are made that way.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't believe that people become evil or wicked based on their choices. From my understanding of the Bible, we are all born evil. Sin is not something that we do; it is who we are. I have never seen a child who has to be taught to do bad things. So, to me, it isn't really an issue about whether God makes one person evil and another one not evil. We are all born evil, including Christians.

-Rachel

[wolfpurplemoon]

It seems a bit harsh to say that even the newest of new born babies is evil, and children may not be taught to do bad things but it is the responsibility of their parents/guardians to teach them what things are good and bad.

[(Anonymous)]

Hah. I see what you are saying about the evil newborn baby. That does sound pretty harsh. :) But even Timothy McVeigh was at one time a newborn baby. I guess my point has more to do with the evil that is inside of us from birth, not necessarily that newborn babies go around murdering people ;)

-Rachel

[(Anonymous)]

Hmmm, yeah. I don't know, honestly. I see your point. Like I've said, I'm a new-ish believer, so I really don't know all of the answers, nor do I try to pretend I do.

I wonder if God knows the entire plan of our lives, how we will turn out, what sins we'll commit, whether or not we'll be wicked, but he gave us free will so he allows things to happen.

For example, my wife and I just had our first child in January. He's starting to crawl now, and the other day, he was pulling on a toy that we knew would fall over. We knew it wouldn't hurt him if it fell, so we let him do it. We totally saw him plan, we knew what would happen, but he had the free will to choose whether or not to pull on it. Of course, he pulled it and it fell over.

We didn't make him pull it over. We knew he would, but we just allowed him to do it.

Maybe that's what happens with wicked people. God knows they'll be wicked, but he hopes that with the free will he gave them, they can learn to make the right choices.

~Kevin

[wolfpurplemoon]

That's a nice analogy, I think it shows the importance of allowing a child to learn from his mistakes (although he may have been entertained by making the toy fall so will keep doing it!).

I guess the difference between attentive parents and God is that God just watches while people make mistakes and hopes they realise for themselves but parents will teach their child that they made a mistake and show them the right way.

[wolfpurplemoon]

It seems that McVeigh saw and experienced a lot of terrible things that built up until he decided to blow up that bomb, and quite a few killers were subjected to abuse when young.

All of which suggests to me that evil people are made rather than born. Which I find more palatable than the thought that an all knowing God puts evil in people from birth and watches to see how we cope with overcoming it.

[(Anonymous)]

I agree with some of the above in that God created man good (without sin, with freedom). Man enjoyed a short time of perfect relationship with God, no fear. Man was enticed by the trick of Satan, to 'Be like God knowing good and evil'. Sure, they saw good and evil after that, but weren't made to handle it. We're not all knowing and seeing and being like God is.

Why was the tree there in the first place? It might seem like a cruel thing to do, but God chooses to let man have freedom to do his will or not, that would seem to be a large part of what Love is, 'letting go'. Of course you can go back even farther than that and question why God made love that way - that I don't know.

God didn't leave us in the dark even when we choose wickedness/evil though, he sent Jesus his Son so that we have the free gift of being reconciled with him, wiping away all our past sin.

Hopefully that helps, let me know if you'd like to discuss further.

Derek
caffienrush at gmail dot com

Impressed

[(Anonymous)]

I'd just like to say that I'm impressed with the conversation here. I'm a believer in God and have been interested to clink on your links from time to time as I read my way through the Bible. In all the postings I've read, I've been amazed at how rational and nonjudgemental the banter has been. My hats off to all parties for the calm, collected and appropriate debates on the issues. Nice job!

Re: Impressed

[wolfpurplemoon]

Thankyou for your interest, I hope it will stay polite and calm round here, it makes things much nicer for me at least!

[(Anonymous)]

No mate, your close but no, Gid has a perfect plan for each one if our lives, but we are ourselves choosing not to follow them! God lives us so much that He gave us free will. Because to receive live back that was forced isn't real live at all, but rather if we then choose to come to Him and love Him then we actually do live Him
Also God never made anything that wasn't perfect, read Genisis to find that out, but it's man that has tainted it all

[(Anonymous)]

It states that we are born with the knowledge of good and evil. And that was meant to be reserved for God. That's part of the sin that we are born with, that means that we need a saviour , to save us from hell.

Proverbs 16:4 Did God Make Evil People

[samuel h johnson (from livejournal.com)]

Jehovah God did not make evil nor evil people because He is not the source of evil. That source is satan. God planted a moral compass (conscience) in everyone to know right and wrong and by the age of accountability we become responsible for the decisions we make. I Samuel 16:14 says "..and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him" referring to King Saul. Saul had turned away from God so God removed His protection. This allowed the evil spirit from satan to come upon Saul. God is all powerful. Simply put, it's God's protection that keeps evil spirits from destroying us. A life of disobedience to God's Word in the Bible gives openings to the the devil. Many times it's the mercy of God that protects even unbelievers. James 1:13 says God cannot be tempted with evil and does not tempt any man. There is no contradiction in the Bible except to people use human reasoning to understand and explaIn God. We believe God by faith and through out relationship with Him we get to know Him more and more. God has such integrity that he would escort the evil man up to the gates of hell. It's the choice we make.

[(Anonymous)]

Just another thought and experience to share with everyone... Isn't it true that even the apostle Paul who was taught the difference between good and evil said somewhere in the new testament that "the things he wants to do he can not do and the things he does not want to do he still does, because the fight is not among men or flesh and blood but by spiritual forces and principalities" so given this, my understanding is it doesn't become a choice. It becomes a war between God and Satan and we are merely pawns playing the civilians into two entities. Like a war between 2 countries with 2 presidents having thier own agenda and issues and we the civilians who just want to live in peace are now involved in a war that is not our choice.

Here is a simple explanation of my own understanding ;- )

[lala chin (from livejournal.com)]

I believe God make us perfect in his image before we were born.
Due to Adam and Eve sin, we all inherited the sinful nature by birth.
Way to go for Mr and Mrs Adam Eve for ruining this for us. ;- 0

Yes we are all wicked in different degree of our life. Pretty sad but true.
It does not matter if your wickedness come in different degrees ... minor or major ..it
is still a SIN. Sin has no measure in God's eyes and it is just us human trying to make it more
appropriate to categories them in different bucket of sinful boxes to make us feel better in today society.

For example, how can a toddler or a young infant knows the desire of selfishness from birth? As parent, we definitely did not teach them how to do that but by nature they just know how to react to it. I have seen this happen to my own kids or other kids where they don't like to share their favorite toys with others and they get mad and upset about it.
Or how does one child learn to lie at a young age. This kind of evidence shows that we have sin embedded in our human DNA by birth.

But thanks-fully God love us so much that he had to send his only son Jesus to die for our sin so that we can be closer to God again. Or another way i believe was just kill us all and be done with it [that would be a human approach to a problem].

Without Jesus we are all doom due to our sinful nature.
Jesus dying on the cross was the only way to wash our sin away and we be free again.
God really loves us so much that he needed to sacrifice his son Jesus to die and rose again to wash away our sinful nature.

Now by God's grace, we are forgiven even though we sin / do wicked stuff in our weak human bodies. All we need to do is ask for forgiveness and repent on our sinful or wicked ways.

A good example if this is true is take a look at Jesus when he was dying on the cross where 2 bad wicked guys were also persecuted together with him on that day. One of them is in heaven walking with Jesus and the other ended up in hell. Why u ask? Because wicked guy #1 ask Jesus for forgiveness of his sin and Jesus knew his genuine heart and save him at that moment of his death where as for the wicked guy#2 decided to mock with wickedness at his death bed without realizing his end is over.

Base on this story, i prefer to be wicked guy #1 regardless of what i have done in the past since i know i'm not perfect and still need Jesus my savior to save me from death.

I hope this simple illustration helps. ;- )

From a Believer

[(Anonymous)]

God made everyone and gave them a choice to believe. I know that because of the sin in the world some people will turn out wicked, God hates wickedness. But He didn't want robots, He wanted human beings that can make their own choices.