wolfbiblemoon

What version of the Bible are you reading? Different versions use different words because translation is difficult at best. Wounded wouldn't necessarily mean physical. The original script could also be translated as hurt, offend, or even displease.

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God is omnipotent, so by definition, shouldn't be able to be hurt, physically or not.

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Omnipotent means all-knowing. Not void of emotion. God can still be hurt by our sinful actions. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotent?show=0&t=1284933512

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Actually omnipotent means all powerful. You should read your definition. Omniscient is all knowing.

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You are correct. I was hasty in my typing. Either way, stating that God is omnipotent (or omniscient) really has no grounds for saying He cannot be hurt.

And God was physically hurt, when Jesus came because Jesus is God. Therefore when Jesus was beaten, God was beaten.

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Jesus is the most confusing character in literature. First he says he's god, then he says he's not. First he's god, then he's god's son. It doesn't even make any sense.
Jesus was a human (whether you consider him god's human form or god's son), so he wasn't omnipotent. Omnipotent means all-powerful or having unlimited power, therefore by definition shouldn't be able to be hurt. I'm pointing out a contradiction, and you're just proving that contradiction more by saying god can be hurt.

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I do not understand your logic. All power or having unlimited power does not equal void of emotion. God's power is any less because He's hurt by our sinful nature.

And Jesus is both God and God's Son. God is 3 "persons" in 1. The Father (God), the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.

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Being hurt or harmed is not an emotion.

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone." -Mark 10:18

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You keep arguing God being hurt. There is no argument to be made, God has created a world and it is now rebeling against him. It doesn't matter how much power you have, if your creation stopped admiting your existance and openly rebeled against you, you would be a little upset too. (God feels emotion too, if we are made in his likeness then I'm willing to bet we got emotions from him) There is absolutely no physical hurting involved with God in this passage.

Also a quick side note, wolfbiblemoon, what are you trying to prove by reading the Skeptic's bible? Why don't you read a non-biased translation and come to your own conclusions? (I am asking this fully expecting an answer, not out of spite or arogance, I legitimately want to know why you are reading that particular translation for this "experiment" of sorts)

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Ok, so lets say this is about emotion. I was actually thinking about
this last night when I should've been working.
An omnipotent being by definition has no weakness, so therefore should not feel emotion (especially sadness or anger) as emotion is a weakness. I'm not saying weak people show emotion, I'm just saying an omnipotent being having emotions is kind of a small crack in the otherwise "perfect" sheild. As well, an omniscient being, being all-knowing, should know all, including things that happen in the future. So god, being an omniscient being, should have seen the "rebellion" coming, but did nothing to stop it. Also, since god is apparently infinite, he had infinity to deal with this knowledge that people were going to "rebel" against him. He has no excuse for such profound sadness, being an omnipotent and omniscient being.

I will speak a bit for wolfbiblemoon here, the SAB is not actually a translation, just an annotated KJV translation. All of her notes here have nothing to do with what is annotated in the SAB. These are all her personal thoughts and conclusions on these three chapters. As far as I've seen, she actually rarely pulls things from the SAB. I also seem to remember her mentioning earlier that she sometimes compares different translations if she doesn't understand something.

Also, wolfbiblemoon, I looked up Isaiah 53:5 (the verse in question) in the Message, and the verse actually seems to be god wounding someone (I'm presuming Isaiah but I haven't read the rest of Isaiah), not god being wounded.

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wolfpurplemoon

Thanks for holding the fort over here!

Yeah, I try very hard not to copy verbatim what the SAB says because I got accused of coming to the same conclusions as them early on in this process. Often they are just ridiculing the crazy way the KJV words things, more modern translations have made it much clearer.

Ah, regarding God being wounded, that'll be a reading comprehension fail for me then! :D

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Well the way it is worded in the KJV, it looks like it's saying god was wounded. The Message makes sense of a lot of things that don't make sense. Keep in mind the KJV only uses 10 000 words, which isn't a lot.

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Voodooskeleton, this really isn't an insult or an attack on your personal character or anything like that but, I think your reasoning is a little flawed. You are looking at various little parts and trying to comprehend them apart from the whole picture. No wonder its not making any sense. It also seems to me that you are asuming that the story is over. That there is nothing left to add.

The story is still being played out right now. If you've read any of the new testament then you understand that Yeshua is the ultimate offering to Yahweh. Meaning that Mankind would no longer require a blood offering and other things to be forgiven of sins. Yeshua was the last offering needed. And the only reason he was enough to quench the wrath of Yahweh, is because he was God himself. And Isaiah 53:5 is a prophecy about Yeshua, saying that he was pierced because of the sins of man, that he took the wrath we deserved from Yahweh on himself on our behalf. Literally he was pierced by nails on a cross.

As for your thoughts on emotions, I also think that you are thinking a little too much in the human construct of emotions. If Yahweh didn't love us he would have never sacraficed anything for us, if he wasn't jealous for us he would never protect us. I promise you Yahweh has emotions, and they aren't chinks in the armor as you put it. If you are omniscient and you know everything, then your emotions are perfect and thus completely justified and are far from a weakness but another perfect piece of the armor. If you know the truth about everything then you know exactly what emotions to feel about them. For example if you know for a fact what a person thinks about you then you know exactly what to feel about them. Now I'm not saying that is exactly how The Lord thinks but I'm merely showing you that an omniscient being can't have weakness when it comes to emotion.

Now on to your argument on Yahweh being emotionally hurt even with infinity to think about it and the power to prevent it. I don't know if you have children yourself but just imagine for a moment that you have a daughter. As soon as she is born you know that 2 options are very easily possible in her future. 1) She will grow up and one day leave you, and 2) She will die before you do. Now, even thought you know that one of these things will happen when it finally happens its still going to hurt.

And just to clarify, Yeshua is fully God and fully man. He was man, but he is omniscient and omnipotent too. Read John 1 and you will understand Christ has been around from the begining too. And it was always in the plan for Yeshua to redeem mankind.

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Clearly you are ignoring the fact that I'm saying the existence of god and Jesus don't make sense because of the definitions of omnipotence and omniscience. You can't change the definition of these words, no matter how much you want your god to be real.
If you can't make sense of the big picture by looking at the little pictures, then there isn't much of a big picture to see. I also assume the story is over, the story being the one in the bible. I don't believe there is a god so it would be foolish to think that "the story" is still going.

There exists little in the way of historical documentation for Jesus' life beyond the Biblical Gospel, and it is likely that these accounts were not written by eyewitnesses. This lack of evidence makes it very difficult to discern actual historical facts behind the christian stories that describe him.
While a person named Jesus may or may not have existed, there is clearly no reason to believe that he had special powers, was the son of god, or performed miracles. Even if it could be firmly established that Jesus, the man, existed, this would not be evidence for the extraordinary claims that make up the foundation of the christian religion.
Furthermore, why did god need a blood offering at all? Why couldn't he just forgive people? God's omnipotence is really in question throughout everything I know about the bible.
As for your mother/daughter argument, if I had a daughter and didn't show any evidence of my existence besides an ancient book written by nomadic bronze-age sheepherders, I feel I would have no reason to be upset over her rebellion. It could only be expected. If I could prevent my daughter from dying before me, but didn't, I also feel I would hold no grounds to be upset over my daughter's death. I don't understand how you can say I think too much in the construct of human emotions when you try to make this argument.

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First off, I think you are missing huge chunks of biblical knowledge and you're trying to argue against it. The book we know is written down now. Back in the times in question Yahweh was speeking through the prophets not through the book. Also you are looking at the book like its teaching us to do bad things. It gives meaning to life and speaks the truth. The teachings of Christ have held true for thousands of years. It's truth has been revealed in the lives of millions who believe it. No one can argue against that. And no obstacle has come against it that hasn't already been foretold and warned about. And it has triumphed over those obstacles. Even your case is in there. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those of us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1st Corinthians 1:18.

And at no point did I try to change definitions of anything. All I did was propose something different than what you had convinced yourself of. And don't try and change that around on me, I didn't convince myself of anything, truth convinced me.

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How has the "thruth" been revealed in the lives of millions who believe it? Why do you need a god to give meaning to life? Why does life have to have a meaning? You're not making any case for your god. Saying it's true and saying the bible says its true doesn't make it true.
I haven't convinced myself of anything. I know the definition of omnipotence and omniscience, and you can't propose that those words mean something that they don't because the bible says god and Jesus don't fit those definitions.

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I still haven't said that they don't fit the definitions. They do fit the definitions of omnipotence and omniscience. All you did was say they didn't fit the definitions and the only proof you have is the fact that you can't grasp the concept of Yahweh and his plan for eternity. And I'm sorry to say this but that's no proof against God.

My mention of the truth being revealed through millions of people who believe the teachings of Christ is pretty straight forward. My life as of right now is a testament to the truth of Christ's teachings. Even secular psychologist agree that you can't get a more sound teaching than Yeshua's. Part of his entire purpose of coming was to show man how to live. And anyone who has tried to live as Christ can attest that it does not leave one wanting more from life but satisfies to the fullest.

And as for meaning, everything you do is working toward a goal in life. Ultimately YOU are going to run out of reasons to live and then what do you do? Do you just give up? Without a meaning the world ceases to have value in any sense. If you believe that the world is just some accident and there is no reason behind anything and no final goal to reach, then what do you do? (Again I am asking this question in all seriousness, not rhetorically, I want to know what it is you believe. What you are trying to do in your lifetime)

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I think you are missing my point completely. The concept of omnipotence is philosophically troublesome and potentially self-contradictory. Can god create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it? Either god can or can't create the rock. If he can create a rock so big he can't lift it then he's not omnipotent because he can't lift it. If he can't create a rock that big in the first place then he's still not omnipotent. There are also arguable contradictions to the issue of god's omnipotence in the bible. And he could there do no mighty work. Mark 6:5; It was impossible for God to lie. Hebrews 6:18; And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Judges 1:19.
Does God literally know everything, not only that has happened, but that also might happen? If so, then in what sense does free will exist? If all your decisions are known by god before you make them then it's not clear if you are really making any "choices" since all the things that you do are predestined. This also implies that implies that god intentionally creates people already knowing that they will wind up in hell. God's lack of knowledge about some things is also addressed in the bible, but I'm running short on time.

"Is He willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is impotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Whence then is evil?" -David Hume

I would also appreciate it if you would list these 'secular psychologists' you speak of, because Jesus is hardly someone I'd want to take all of my morals from, seeing as he asks his followers to hate their families. The only reason Jesus should be praised is because he does not derive his ethics from the scriptures of his upbringings.

Having a goal in life is not the same as giving life meaning. I have a goal of becoming a science teacher and living a happy fulfilling life with my family. The world does not cease to have value without meaning. The world is an amazing and beautiful place, and I realize that without god. The world is not an accident, and I didn't say there was no reason behind anything (though there is no reason behind many things). You seem to be confusing 'a meaning to life' with a lot of other things. I would address this subject more but I really am running out of time before work.

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Sorry it has taken me this long to reply to your comment but I've had a busy couple of days, but here we go...

So far, from what I can see, you have taken every verse out of its context. Which goes back to what I was telling you earlier about seeing the little picture as a part of the whole picture instead of independent from everything. Christ's death makes no sense if you don't know about Genesis 3 and the fall of man, and God's plan for redemption, not only for humanity but for the entire Creation. Your mindset is in the present only. Instead you have to think of what was, is, and is coming. Which again goes back to the "unfinished story" I said earlier. Evil will one day be eliminated, and if you say why not today? (and I'm not saying you are) then you have to see that by my definition of evil, anyone who has sinned without accepting grace from God is subject to elimination. Including myself before coming to Christ.

Now on to the verses you quoted. Mark 6:5 kind of works against your free will argument. Yeshua "could do no mighty works there" because the people didn't believe, and so, they made the choice not to believe him. The people were unwilling to accept his help (with a few exceptions) and so he wasn't going to help them if it was against their will to be helped. Also its impossible for God to lie because it isn't in his nature to lie. If God is truth, how can he lie? (And just to throw this in there, if God did say something, the fact that he said it would make it true. Its kind of a paradox like your "rock" argument. But you also have to understand that your entire reality is based on what you can see comprehend and imagine, Yahweh is not bound by those constraints because he created everything you have experienced) And Judah (in Judges) is the person, God is not physically with him. There is more than 1 way for God to be "with" someone I'm not sure why you threw that one in there honestly. The way the verse looked by itself made it seem like God couldn't defeat them, that's not the case.

Now I know I touched a little on this before but, before we dive into the "evil" argument I'm going to need you to specify what it is you deem to be evil, because what I see as evil is anything that goes against god or is "ungodly" in the strictest sense of the word. Surely you won't agree on me with this one so I need some more input on your part.

On to your comment on Yeshua stating that you should hate your family. The word "Hate" in this context isn't actually "hate" in the English/Americanized sense we know. Its a word used to compare. For example, you should love your family and hate your friends. That's not to say you should literally despise your friends, but in comparison to your family your friends come in second place. Just to reinforce the fact that Christians aren't supposed to hate their families, in 1 Timothy 4:8 it says "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

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(Sorry wouldn't fit in 1 post)

As for the psychologist in question, I have no specific names but I don't know anyone who disagrees with loving others above yourself, and humbling yourself before others, treating others the way they want to be treated, loving unconditionally, forgiveness, kindness, justice, charity, acceptance, individuality, obeying laws, work toward something bigger, greater and more important than yourself, and who ever you work for do it as though you are working for God, don't lust, don't steal, don't put your faith in men (they will only fail you eventually). I'm sure you probably think these are good things. I know they are good things and I have a reason to live my life by these virtues and more.

Earlier you made mention that one thing Yeshua was commendable for was not "deriving his ethics from the scriptures of his upbringing" this is a false statement. Jesus was the only one who was getting the real meaning of the scriptures. The pharisees mentioned so often in the New Testament are a prime example of this. Constantly Yeshua was quoting scripture, he knew it better than anyone, he was God, and he consistently exposed the error of their ways and the futility of their thinking because they had lost sight of why they were doing what they were doing. They were too focused on what they were doing and neglected to see why they were doing the things God commanded. God's commandments are an invitation to our greatest delights and his prohibitions are a battle against our worst nightmares.

Now back to free will. It is your free will that you are choosing to not believe there is a God. This very argument proves free will. If God had created a world where there was no free will and we had no option but to be Christians, then you would argue that it would be better to have free will and have evil in the world/bad things happen than to not have free will and have nothing go wrong. It's only because of free will that evil exists in this world. I feel that its more glorifying to God that we experience the things of this world and still choose to serve him over indulging ourselves in this temporary world. Yahweh could have created an infinite number of other worlds for the single purpose of worshiping him perfectly, like robots, no free will, no choices to make, no bad. But in our world we have the option to worship Him or ourselves, and to choose to worship Him over ourselves is a much greater testament to Yahweh's glory than simply having "robots" worship all day everyday (with no "heart" so to say). But we believe that we are only temporary and everything we do apart from God will simply fade away and be completely and totally in vain. Thus meaningless, lives that mine as well have never existed in the grand scheme of things.

Please elaborate on your comment about a "fulfilling life" (ie. What exactly is a fulfilling life to you?) and the earth and certain things not being an accident/coincidence too. I really do want to know what you think. And please don't think that I am angry with you when I type this stuff, I'm really not. I genuinely want to know what you think. Its not everyday that I get to converse with an Atheist.

And a bit of a side note (and don't take this the wrong way) but, you cannot fully grasp the concept of Yahweh with such a preformed idea of him. I have picked up on the fact that you haven't read the entire Bible. From what I can gather, it seems to me like you have skimmed over a few Atheistic websites and articles and grabbed a few verses here and there that, apart from the context of the full scripture, make no sense to you and/or looks completely ridiculous to you. If you don't know the Bible, then you can't possibly know God or argue against him.

Also, I would like to keep this "debate", if you will, as calm as possible. Please think about what you say and don't say it out of anger because its only going to end badly. I'm not trying to convert you, I'm only trying to fix what you believe about Yahweh instead of letting you dwell in the lies and misconceptions fed to you so far. If I had only heard what you've said so far, I'd probably have a hard time believing the bible too.

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Sorry I've had a busy weekend and haven't been able to get online as much.

First of all, you really need to stop this holier-than-thou attitude. I am fully aware of the fall of man, I have read genesis. Jesus's death still does not make sense to me. I have thought of what was, and most things in the bible have not been proven to happen, so why should I believe that the bible is right about what is going to happen?
I am fully aware of the context of the verses I have stated. All you have done is restated exactly what they say, and reinforced what I was saying about how the existence of an omnipotent being doesn't making sense. If someone cannot do something, no matter how small it is, then they are not all-powerful, and therefore not omnipotent.
Evil is subjective. I personally don't believe that evil and good are black and white with no grey area. The bible says, thou shalt not kill. What about in self-defense, or to save a loved one? Thou shalt not lie. What if lying protects someone from harm, or makes someone feel good about themselves? I think something is wrong if it harms another person, but again, there are grey areas.
And just for the record, my friends are just as important to me as my family.

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