It appears that you are trying to treat sin as some sort of balance sheet. That would be the wrong way to look at it. There is no perfect analogy, but allow me to re-address the one that I used earlier.
I suggested that an altruist would pay off the debtors debts. This isn't exactly what God is offering. A better (but still flawed) way of putting it would be that the altruist arranges for the debt to be forgiven. Not paying it off, but eliminating it as if it never happened. No record of the debt would exist. The debtor might disbelieve that the altruist would have the ability to do so. The debtor may disbelieve that the altruist would follow through with the promise. The debtor may not even acknowledge the debt in the first place (one of the flaws in this analogy is to accept that the debtor may disavow the debt, this isn't too outlandish however because people today simply walk away from debt as if they never owed it, causing their creditors great loss). If, however, the debtor accepts the altruist's offer, the debtor becomes free of the debt.
We use language referring to Jesus paying for our sins. This is poetic, and it is used somewhat because we talk about our debt of sin, but it is technically incorrect. As I wrote above, Jesus offers forgiveness for our sins. Forgiveness is not payment. If it was payment, the sin would still be remembered on a balance sheet and marked paid. What we are offered instead is for the sin to be blotted out, for it to be eliminated in the eyes of God as if it never happened. That wouldn't require Jesus to be eternally punished, because there is no debt to be paid, rather the sin is wiped out (forgiven) in its entirety.
Of course the previous passage refers to the spiritual reality. In the physical world, the results of sin still exist, and we often still have to deal with them. As you wrote, you were concerned with the concept of eternal punishment. Eternal punishment would exist in the spiritual realm, so your concern is there.
Looking at that briefly, I would ask, what would be an adequate punishment for sin? Should a white lie require 3 months of punishment, while perhaps shoplifting be 1 year? Should murder be 100 years, but rape be 50? Should denying God exists be 200 years, perhaps 1,000? As I said above, sin isn't a balance sheet, instead it is binary. We either have sin in our lives or we do not, there is no greater or lesser sin in regards to the spiritual realm and thus the punishment for having sin is the same. Since all humans sin (with one notable exception), then all humans have sin in their lives. If God won't allow a person with sin into Heaven, then there would be no hope for salvation unless forgiveness is available. Fortunately, forgiveness is available as a free gift for any who want it. Only those who decide to refuse the gift would face eternal punishment.
You said that [the consequences of our decisions] is not known because I cannot prove it. In essence, you are correct. Faith in God, in Jesus, in Salvation is indeed Faith. I can make a case for it, including a convincing case for the existence of the supernatural, but proof of God is beyond the capability of man. By its nature, proof can only apply to the physical world, and God doesn't reside solely in the physical world; God is supernatural and our language and physical laws cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. Effectively, however, one who disbelieves God is like the debtor who would disavow the debt (as I admitted above, it is a flawed analogy). The analogy assumes the debt is real, regardless of the mindset of the debtor. I can say that the consequences have indeed been made public, and, in fact, in this discussion you do indeed know them. Someone can disbelieve them and that is (and always has been) their prerogative, but it doesn't change that the information is there. If the debtor doesn't believe that they'll go to jail for ignoring their debt, it doesn't change that they knew (or could have learned) what the consequences of their actions were. If the sinner doesn't believe that they will have consequences for their sin if it is not forgiven, that doesn't change that they know (or could have learned) what those consequences were and what they could do to be forgiven.
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2010-10-16 08:19 am (UTC)It appears that you are trying to treat sin as some sort of balance sheet. That would be the wrong way to look at it. There is no perfect analogy, but allow me to re-address the one that I used earlier.
I suggested that an altruist would pay off the debtors debts. This isn't exactly what God is offering. A better (but still flawed) way of putting it would be that the altruist arranges for the debt to be forgiven. Not paying it off, but eliminating it as if it never happened. No record of the debt would exist.
The debtor might disbelieve that the altruist would have the ability to do so. The debtor may disbelieve that the altruist would follow through with the promise. The debtor may not even acknowledge the debt in the first place (one of the flaws in this analogy is to accept that the debtor may disavow the debt, this isn't too outlandish however because people today simply walk away from debt as if they never owed it, causing their creditors great loss). If, however, the debtor accepts the altruist's offer, the debtor becomes free of the debt.
We use language referring to Jesus paying for our sins. This is poetic, and it is used somewhat because we talk about our debt of sin, but it is technically incorrect. As I wrote above, Jesus offers forgiveness for our sins. Forgiveness is not payment. If it was payment, the sin would still be remembered on a balance sheet and marked paid. What we are offered instead is for the sin to be blotted out, for it to be eliminated in the eyes of God as if it never happened. That wouldn't require Jesus to be eternally punished, because there is no debt to be paid, rather the sin is wiped out (forgiven) in its entirety.
Of course the previous passage refers to the spiritual reality. In the physical world, the results of sin still exist, and we often still have to deal with them. As you wrote, you were concerned with the concept of eternal punishment. Eternal punishment would exist in the spiritual realm, so your concern is there.
Looking at that briefly, I would ask, what would be an adequate punishment for sin? Should a white lie require 3 months of punishment, while perhaps shoplifting be 1 year? Should murder be 100 years, but rape be 50? Should denying God exists be 200 years, perhaps 1,000? As I said above, sin isn't a balance sheet, instead it is binary. We either have sin in our lives or we do not, there is no greater or lesser sin in regards to the spiritual realm and thus the punishment for having sin is the same. Since all humans sin (with one notable exception), then all humans have sin in their lives. If God won't allow a person with sin into Heaven, then there would be no hope for salvation unless forgiveness is available. Fortunately, forgiveness is available as a free gift for any who want it. Only those who decide to refuse the gift would face eternal punishment.
You said that [the consequences of our decisions] is not known because I cannot prove it. In essence, you are correct. Faith in God, in Jesus, in Salvation is indeed Faith. I can make a case for it, including a convincing case for the existence of the supernatural, but proof of God is beyond the capability of man. By its nature, proof can only apply to the physical world, and God doesn't reside solely in the physical world; God is supernatural and our language and physical laws cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. Effectively, however, one who disbelieves God is like the debtor who would disavow the debt (as I admitted above, it is a flawed analogy). The analogy assumes the debt is real, regardless of the mindset of the debtor.
I can say that the consequences have indeed been made public, and, in fact, in this discussion you do indeed know them. Someone can disbelieve them and that is (and always has been) their prerogative, but it doesn't change that the information is there. If the debtor doesn't believe that they'll go to jail for ignoring their debt, it doesn't change that they knew (or could have learned) what the consequences of their actions were. If the sinner doesn't believe that they will have consequences for their sin if it is not forgiven, that doesn't change that they know (or could have learned) what those consequences were and what they could do to be forgiven.
-- Jeff