wolfbiblemoon | Proverbs 13-15

Biblical justification for corporal punishment in Proverb 13:24. God-endorsed abuse of the children you love.

I've been trying not to point out the same things as the SAB, but this one amused me, Proverb 14:15 "The simple believeth every word" or "A naive person believes everything" as the 'bad' side of the verse. Surely this is required in order for a religion to have followers?

Proverb 15 seems to be listing the seven deadly sins in a roundabout way, I've spotted sloth, greed, wrath & pride at least.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From: (Anonymous)

I am a follower of Jesus, but am not here to tell you what to believe or that you are going to hell. In fact, I want to apologize for all of the hate Christians have brought into the world. It breaks my heart and I hope you can forgive us.

Having grown up in church, it is hard for me to approach the Bible without any preconceived ideas. I openly acknowledge this and hope that by reading your posts I will gain insight into how people who did not grow up in church interpret the Bible.

I was wondering if I could enter the conversation. Usually people have blogs because they want to interact with others, but I do not want to be a nuisance.

-Rachel

From:

wolfpurplemoon

Hi Rachel, please feel free to take part in the comments here, thankyou for your polite and open minded comment.

From: (Anonymous)

I'm with Rachel... I'm not here to tell you what to believe. As a matter of fact, I'm a pretty liberal Christian, and even though the Bible says I should "go and make disciples," I don't feel like it's my place to tell people they need to be Christian. I hope that by living my life in a loving, Christian way, people will see and take notice.

I'd like to join the discussions here, too. I think it's totally awesome that you're willing to even read the Bible. The atheists that I know aren't even so open-minded to do that. And what's really cool is that I think I can learn a lot from you, because I you are seeing the Bible from the outside perspective.

Thank you so much for doing this blog.

~Kevin

From:

wolfpurplemoon

Hi Kevin, thankyou for reading, hope you learn something from my ramblings!

From:

kevinswitzer.livejournal.com

I had to just sign up for an account because I knew I'd forget to write ~Kevin at the end of every post. :)

I'm sure I'll learn something. And hopefully you'll learn something, too. Even if at the end of the bible you still aren't a Christian, I can hopefully at least give you some insight as to what we believe.

From:

wolfpurplemoon

I seem to be unintentionally running a bit of a recruitment drive for Livejournal through my bible reading, several people have created an account just to comment here!

I'll look forward to any insights you can give.

From:

bonsaye.livejournal.com

I'm also with Rachel about not being here to pick on you or convert you or anything. Like her, I am a follower of Jesus and have grown up in church, and I am hanging on your every word with fascination because you have a newcomer's perspective to the Bible that I haven't experienced myself. I started reading earlier this evening, in your entries on 1 Samuel, and have read all the way through to here without stopping. I am so sorry for all the comments you get that ridicule your thoughts or your effort. Keep on reading, and keep up the good work!

From:

wolfpurplemoon

Thanks for your interest and kind words!

From: (Anonymous)

As Christians we are taught to think and question all that we hear and see, so the bible is correct in saying not to question is silly and naive, faith (not religion) results from questioning after all. questioning what life is all about and not just bring niave and ignoring what could be out there

From:

wolfpurplemoon

From my perspective it seems that if Christians were truly questioning everything they are told then there wouldn't be quite so many Christians.

From: (Anonymous)

I partially disagree with that last part. I have questioned my faith many times, but the unconditional love of who I firmly believe is my creator reassures I'm not stupid for believing what I believe. Now with that said, I have found through extensive research that if were to question everything you would find that ther would have to be a master creator for everything. Now you may not follow the Christian beliefs, in fact you may not even follow any certain "religion" but rather move from atheist to agnostic.

From: (Anonymous)

Sorry meant to leave my name from the last post.

~Trevor

From:

wolfpurplemoon

The only evidence for a master creator for everything exists in religious texts such as the bible. Extensive research into the origins of the universe and life has not and will not ultimately lead to the conclusion that it all had to be created.

And if you have come to that conclusion, how do you know that the Christian God is the master creator? There are quite a lot of alternatives.

From:

kevinswitzer.livejournal.com

Yeah, I've thought about how there are alternatives, too.

Every religion has a way of explaining the origin of the world. I haven't researched a lot of religions, honestly, but the one thing that draws me to Christianity is that the God is a loving God and that you don't have to do anything to be saved.

I know you're not there yet, but I actually just memorized this verse the other day:
"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ when we were dead in transgressions - it is by grace you have been saved." - Ephesians 2:4-5

That's what I love about Christianity. I didn't and don't have to earn my salvation. We were saved when Jesus died for our sins. And the fact that we honor a truly loving God is what makes us want to be compassionate and do acts of goodness. You don't earn your salvation through your actions... it's just given to you.

From:

wolfpurplemoon

I'm aware that I'll get all this 'God is loving' stuff once I get into the New Testament, the God of the Old Testament doesn't really give anyone much reason to follow him except that there are have been some pretty awful punishments for not following him. I guess Old Testament God likes the stick and New Testament God prefers the carrot!

So I'm not sure whether to get into the salvation thing (and whether you have to earn it or not) now or when I get to the parts that touch on what you say. It's probably better to just let me get there when I get there, I hope you'll stick around till then, just over 5 months to go!

From:

kevinswitzer.livejournal.com

Haha... yeah. You can do it!

From:

hypatiaslore.livejournal.com

"I'm aware that I'll get all this 'God is loving' stuff once I get into the New Testament"

Not really. (o; The god of the Old Testament rears his ugly head plenty of times, in Jesus' teachings as well. I'm not exactly sure how it gets over looked so completely.

From:

wolfpurplemoon

I suppose that as many believers don't seem to know their own book all that well, the preachers must just read out all the 'good bits' and those are also the parts that are emphasised when trying to convert someone. Noone will ever become a Christian from just reading the bible from cover to cover, I'm living proof of that! :D

From:

hypatiaslore.livejournal.com

I'm probably living proof of the antithesis. I'm an atheist and I have read the Bible cover to cover more than once and studied the history and philology of it extensively. (o:

The more I study it, the easier it is not to believe it as a serious source of valid information about the universe. It doesn't make it less fascinating from an anthropological and sociological point of view in the sense that it has had such an immense (to say the least) effect on the course of modern history. I find that sort of mind boggling. That lies more in the sense of a psychiatrist who finds a particularly intractable psychosis or personality disorder of interests. The more I learn the more translucent the repetitive behavior-isms, so incredibly marked through out our history affecting the world over, become. I really wonder what would have happened if the Hebrew culture had decided not to emulate the Greeks and transcribe their narratives into the Torah as we know it, and remain the oral culture that they were prior to the Persian Period.

Anyway, my "day job" is raising 3 toddlers at the moment, but I do wish had more time to respond to some of the responses you've been getting. They have been quite interesting! This has probably been the most interesting community on LJ I've seen. (o:

From:

wolfpurplemoon

Good luck with all those toddlers, I'll look forward to reading anything you have time to add!

From: (Anonymous)

If you become a christian, that'd be awesome!.

From: (Anonymous)

And what are these alternatives? And what is the proof?

From: (Anonymous)

I’d like to invite y’all to listen to a testimony of an atheist who converted to Christianity after doing two years of intense research to prove the Bible wrong. This testimony will possibly open your eyes to something new. It’s on Kerryshook.org from the “God-Cubed” series. I believe you can watch it online. It just aired yesterday.

From:

wolfpurplemoon

I wonder what his intense research to prove the bible wrong was really motivated by for him to come out of it as a Christian. I think you don't need to be too intensive in your studies to be convinced pretty quick that not much of it is true.

From: (Anonymous)

God will make sure you live to know him,you live to cry out his name and you live to get saved.I lived in russia where ppl were denied faith and religion but saw miracles.Material wealth alone is not fulfilling for I'm already wealthy.I pray that you read the bible and experience Gods power.I was atheist and went back to God after an awesome experience with Jesus power.Seek jesus first and you will have the glory.just know you live because a price was paid for your life.

From:

angeleek73.livejournal.com

Greetings. In my brief read of your site I have come to understand that you believe God, or rather, religion is foolishness. You feel the Biblical God of tha OT is a cruel dictator who illicits obedience with fear. I would like to offer you, humbly, that no man has ever been intellectually argued into the Kingdom of Heaven, nor has anyone been dragged in kicking and screaming. If you ever come to faith in your Creator it will be a supernatural act of faith; not to imply that Christianity is a mindless exercise-just read C.S. Lewis's defense of the faith. I have a question. You mentioned that there are other alternatives to the God of the Bible; If you have found another god who has offered himself in your place, requiring only the faith of a mustard seed in return please reveal it. If you have been led by God to read His word than you will find truth and salvation; like Pharoah, if your heart is hardened you will see only your own interpretations and intellect. I hope the former will be your lot. Thank you for your honesty and invitation for dialogue.

From:

wolfpurplemoon

The OT God does elicit obedience with fear, there are many punishments for doing the wrong thing and the only benefit of doing the good thing often seems to be to avoid those punishments.

There are a great many religions in the world (4,200 roughly), all proclaiming that they are the one true religion and they almost all believe that everyone else is wrong. From an outside perspective it is hard to see that any of them are right.

From: (Anonymous)

Hi there. I really admire that you are taking the time to read the Bible and try and make sense of something that you are obviously not sure about. I am a believer and have grown up in church, so my thoughts and views are obviously going to be a lot different.

I want to recommend a couple of books to you...if that is ok. They are both by the same author and I think he has a lot of good things to say. Even as a Christian who grew up in church it helped me realize that a lot of what I have grown up being taught isn't necessarily right. The books are "Blue Like Jazz" and "Searching for God knows what" both are by Donald Miller.
I just finished reading "Searching for God knows what" and he talks about how boxed in religion and formulas are not what it is all about.

When you mentioned how there are a lot of punishments for doing the wrong things and "the only benefit of doing the good thing often seems to be to avoid those punishments" it reminded me of what Donald Miller talked about in "Searching for God Knows What".
We often see Christianity as a list of rights and wrongs and a list of rules to follow...but, what it really is, is a love story.

Anyways, I recommend reading those books cuz I think it might help you along in your journey. I hope you find what you're looking for :)

From: (Anonymous)

I'm a Christian and my friend just became a christian as well ,but hasn't changed from what he has been doing. He is still sayin the f-bomb and all these other words. I was just wondering what you think I could say or do to encourage him to read the bible and to act the same way at school that he does at church. Thanks.

From:

wolfpurplemoon

I assume you and your friend are teenagers, it sounds like he's acting like a teenager, I'm sure he'll grow out of it (or out of religion)

From: (Anonymous)

Hi,
Am 17 and I don't know how but I came across your blog. Truth be told I can never doubt the existence of God, although this doesn't mean that I am saved. I have come to learn that God does whatever he wants and no one can stand in his way or question him! He doesn't need us humans, after Adam and Eve sinned we were all doomed for damnation. By grace he decided he'll save some people, these people are not "christians" they are people that God himself decides he wants to save. This only happens by his grace, I have come to learn that grace is not about what you have done or what you deserve it is a gift from God. Am not here to say what is right or wrong or deem others as right or wrong! All I can say is regardless of what christians or atheists or any other categories think God is God he will do what he pleases because he doesn't need anything from us neither is his existence and authority tied to us. God's will shall be done whether christians or atheist or people follow him or not.

From: (Anonymous)

The point of Proverbs 13:24 is diciplining your child, not abusing. This verse also goes along with Proverbs 22:6 where parents are told to train up their children.

I think everyone has seen a child who has been spoiled by their parents by not being disciplined. Not spoiled in being giving things (although that may be part of it) but spoiled by not having their actions corrected. This is what the spare the rod part of the verse is talking about. God is not condoning or endorsing child abuse, rather He is telling the parent to discipline their child. Also, discipline and punishment are two very different things. While there may be an element of punishment in discipline (there is a penalty to be paid for wrong actions);Discipline is done to correct behavior in someone and to teach them proper behavior. I have worked with children for over 20 years, and it is very easy to tell a child who receives discipline at home and one who does not. I believe our world would be a much better place if parents would stop trying to be friends with their young child and start disciplining them.

The second part of the verse states that parents who love their children discipline them. Again, this is not telling parents to beat their children. While I do believe in spanking, I don't believe in liberal use of spanking. There is also the fact that every child is different, and requires a different method of discipling. For example, when I was a child I was disciplined by being grounded from reading (I was a weird child). While I was spanked, my parents found that grounding me from reading made much more of an impact in my behavior. But the point this verse makes is that you show you love your child by disciplining them to teach them the proper way to act and behave. It's also to pass on the knowledge that parents have obtained through their life to help keep their children from repeating the same mistakes. For example, maybe the father drank alot as a teenager and as a result he got a girl pregnant and later had a wreck. Now when his son becomes a teenager and he discovers that his son has started drinking, do you think if he really loves him the father will just sit back and say, "Oh well, kids will be kids." No! He will do all in his power to prevent his son from making the same mistakes he did. That is the point of this verse. You say you love your children, but if you don't discipline them, you're not helping them.