Matthew 20-21

[wolfpurplemoon]

Ok, I'm all for treating people equalling and fairly, but if you worked for 12 hours and someone else worked for 1 hour you would be well within your rights to complain if they got paid the same as you for the whole day, equal in this case would be the same amount per hour worked. The unions would love Jesus.

Jesus hasn't got the power to grant shotgun rights to anyone who wants to sit next to him in heaven.

Jesus decides to make an entrance when he arrives at Jerusalem, riding on a donkey with crowds shouting his praises and scattering branches on the road. He then evicts the market set up on the steps of the temple because they are defiling his house of prayer.

Jesus gets unnecessarily annoyed with a fig tree that happened to not be bearing fruit, he curses it and it dies. If he hadn't evicted the market traders then he could've had a meal and not been so hungry that he was moody.

Jesus asks the leaders some riddles in parable form because they questioned his authority, their answers seem to condemn them. They want to arrest him but fear his groupies.

Comments

[zen-says.livejournal.com]

imagine jesus was thirsty and walking through an orchard and see no fruits.

pointing at the tress and say: "no fruits, you die,,,, dies,,,, die"

what kind of person curse at a tree? assuming the father of creation makes the tree and schedules the time for it to bear fruit.

Does jesus not know the time the plant, the time to harvest? to curse a poor tree due to the father's fault, is he not happy what his father has done?

Or did jesus just have a PMS?

if your seriously conserding reading the bible...

[(Anonymous)]

In order to get an honest analysis of the bible, it might be wise to let go of all your preconceived notions about Jesus, the bible, and christianity. Also, you might consider picking up a commentary. They help with the historical context the passages are written in to help understand the culture. I can tell by your analysis of this particular text you are quick to judge and point out faults of Jesus and his teachings (which there aren't any). Jesus isn't concerned with teaching about what makes us happy and comfortable. He was a real person, and he had emotions just like we do, but he was perfect. When you read the bible with your own disbelief, you tend to add your own tone to the situation, and that's how things can easily be taken out of context. Hopefully this helps. I don't know what your trying to accomplish, but good luck, and I hope you find the answers that you are looking for.

Re: if your seriously conserding reading the bible...

[wolfpurplemoon]

I understand that the culture was different then, but people believe that what was taught then still applies to our lives today so I don't see a problem with judging it from my own modern perspective. And if you really see no faults in Jesus or his teachings then maybe you have some preconceived notions you need to let go of.

Re: if your seriously conserding reading the bible...

[(Anonymous)]

Being a former non-believer myself, I know what I believe now, and why. All of my preconceived notions about Jesus are only what He has taught me through His word. In order to correctly discern what the bible is saying, you have to consult the author. You can read the bible and interpret it however you want, its for your own benefit, I assume, your reading through the bible. I just thought you'd want to look it from an honest, clear perspective.

Please Stop Reading

[allusionist tlamar (from livejournal.com)]

It is your choice to believe or not believe but is a disservice to you to read the book the way you are. You are not reading for the sake of inlightenment. This is more of an attempt to say that you tried but it (the bible) failed. You are not reading from a bible writen by a believer or using any of the resources that those who believe use to educate them selves on the subject. This tatic is as open minded as reading a Gleen Beck book to develop a defensive understanding of progresives.
Please pick up some of the Sartre, Camus or other existentialist, they would provide more productive reading for you.

Re: if your seriously conserding reading the bible...

[zen-says.livejournal.com]

as a ex-believer, a local preacher and a short term seminary student, I had various copies of different versions of the bibles and commentary years ago, what makes you think that I did not have commentary and such.

Bible as such, as used by christians, and not many christians went to a proper exposition of bible, they should read the bible as the bible purported to be.

What makes the commentaries more accurate and proper if God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Read the bible as it is. jesus if he ever exists in the bible, did curse the fig tree when he was thirsty, no excuse/reasons needed. just a bad temmper guy, and would be an abusive husband if he was married, looking at the suggested treatments to the SLAVES.

Matthew 20

[(Anonymous)]

In Matthew 20 Jesus compares the kingdom of heaven to workers in a vineyard. He says that the last will be first and the first will be last. I see this as the choosen ones of god in heaven. He who humbles himself to god and others (like a slave) will actually be first in heaven. So the workers who were hired first, are actually last because they wanted more out of the landowner (god) than they asked for at the begining. Jesus has all the rights to grant people this because he is gods image on earth.

[(Anonymous)]

I had an apple tree that did not bear apples two years in a row.
An arborist said the tree had been hit by blight thus slowly
killing the tree. Jesus story sounds like a parable of what
Will happen to us if we don't bear fruit.

Jews vs Gentiles

[(Anonymous)]

Read deeper. This is about the Jews and the Gentiles.

Not about individuals but the groups.

Those who were longer in the field were the jews. They think its about the work. Those who came later to the fields were the gentiles. The money is heaven. Jesus is saying it is not about who works the longest or hardest to get to heaven. It's purely by grace and to the glory of God that anyone gets to heaven. Thank you so much Moon for showing me this scripture. Until you asked about it, I never saw the true message and meaning before. Thanks for the blessing.

Re: if your seriously conserding reading the bible...

[wolfpurplemoon]

I think the people who wrote the bible, and even the people who assembled it in its current form, are long dead so no chance of consulting them I'm afraid.

I believe my perspective is pretty honest and it's certainly clear, and anyway I have plenty of alternative perspectives being offered through the comments on my blog, so I think I'm getting to know what it means to people who believe it.

Re: Please Stop Reading

[wolfpurplemoon]

I don't think I need to read a bible written by a believer as I get plenty of alternative perspectives through the comments here, which surely means the bible and its believers are getting plenty of chances to convince me - presumably the people who come here have made use of these resources you speak about.

The fact that all of this has failed to move me from my position of non-belief doesn't mean I'm not open minded, but that I have logic and reason on my side so I'm waiting for the extraordinary evidence to back up the extraordinary claims (to paraphrase Carl Sagan)

But, I'm guessing it's the mention of the Skeptic's Annotated Bible that has you concerned for the fairness of my bible reading, I've actually changed tactics since I wrote my intro, so what I am reading now is a modern translation and I'm only skimming the annotations in the SAB as they mostly relate to the KJV and its quirks and strange turns of phrase.

Re: Please Stop Reading

[hypatiaslore.livejournal.com]

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone who believes in the bible telling a non-believer to actually stop reading the bible. Do you honestly believe that it will harm anyone to read the bible? Assuming you think this is the word of your god in some fashion, whether literal or inspired, you truly believe that even reading that word of god with a closed mind is a disservice in some way? How is that even possible with an omnipotent being and an infallible word? I truly mean no disrespect to you or your religion. However, while her interpretation of this book may not be the same as yours, I am seriously surprised at the reaction of anyone giving the advice to drop the project altogether.

Re: if your seriously conserding reading the bible...

[hypatiaslore.livejournal.com]

I once heard the story of the cursed fig tree presented as thus: That the reason the Jesus figure curses the tree was because it was not fulfilling its purpose in life. Therefore, the allegory is not that Jesus curses some random tree for not appeasing his hunger, but that the tree was being judged guilty for the sin of not reaching its "God-given" potential.

Re: Please Stop Reading

[(Anonymous)]

Please go back and read my comment one more time. Really, go back and read it.


No where in there did I request you to believe. The bible teaches that no matter how good of any arguement a believer gives some people will never beliver. Coming to belief is always between the individual and God. The believer is there to educate people on the faith when they are interested in learning. When Believers attempt to educate mockers they are casting pearls to pigs.
I only requested that you properly study the content like you would any other subject. Instead you hide behind the statement 'I am being open mind; I am just to smart to believe.' Even if you think that every word in the book is crap you should have a better understanding of what is being said. You come on here talking like you get what the text means to the believer, belittling the bible and demanding that others beg you to come to believe. He who gives little, gets little.
I am not here to sway your view of Christianity. I am here to promote productivity. You are wasting your time and the time of those whom try to explain the passages to you.
If you want to learn act like you want to learn get the right material and study the way believers study. Or continue to let you ignorance shine as you make elementary jokes and commentary that show you don't know what you are talking about. You don't have to believe but please speak educatedly.

Re: Please Stop Reading

[allusionist tlamar (from livejournal.com)]

If Jesus stood before people time after time showing that he is God and they called him everything but... Go back through your bible and you will see many people will not believe by choice. I sad that because the commentaries are writen out of hate for the word not ignorance and a longing for understanding. Even Jesus said things that meant leave me alone when they reflect they are not being real. "let the dead bury the dead" "sell everthing and join me."
Believers are doing God a disservice by seeing people mock God with the mask of reading the bible and making observations and not calling them out. If the reader wanted to read and not comment fine but to read just to mock God... I was telling a mocker to stop reading to mock God not the Ethiopian in Acts.

Re: Please Stop Reading

[liedownlovely.livejournal.com]

If I'm hearing you correctly, you're telling a non-believer who has never read the Bible before that her commentary shows she's never read it and doesn't know what she's talking about. When she's never read it.

...the whole point of her reading it, and writing her initial gut reaction is to become educated. Of course her initial thoughts will not be believer-centric, because she is not one. But she is not "mocking" the Bible just because she doesn't believe in it - when you read books, do you believe 100% of everything written in order to "understand" it? I certainly hope not.

I don't understand this process of "You can't read the Bible because to understand it you must believe, and to believe, you must read the Bible" logic that you as well as another commenter last month brought up. Perhaps you can address it better than the last: how can a non-believer be saved if they will not understand the Bible unless they're already saved? This is excluding having Christian witnesses explain it, because it's a never ending chain; where did they hear it from? Who was the first believer? How did he, in his sinful ignorance, understand something he could only understand if he believed in it before reading?

If you wish to promote productivity, may I humbly suggest doing something else besides telling someone to stop reading a book? I doubt after going through the whole Old Testament she is going to stop now, especially when the modern Christian movements put so much weight into the New Testament and Jesus' teachings. This is "the good part", so to speak, and supposedly it applies to modern day society, so what harm can it do for her to finish?

Just my thoughts.

P.S. "Educatedly" is not a word. Therefore, she can't speak "educatedly".

Re: if your seriously conserding reading the bible...

[zen-says.livejournal.com]

I once heard my preacher says, or the commentaries written or my bible study leader says,,,, they say this and that, and what makes them more right than you when you read the bible plain and simple. If the bible is to be read in line with commentaries, the cover on all bibles must read "Please read in context according to Greek/Hebrew translations and context of the writer. Any miscontrued and violence within is unintended and is offensive"

Read the bible as it is. Not with commentaries, not with pre-conceived ideas implanted by the preachers.

Re: Please Stop Reading

[liedownlovely.livejournal.com]

This comment doesn't even direct any of the questions hypatiaslore raised. So perhaps we can try again, because I'm really interested why anyone would say "please stop reading the Bible, which is the key to salvation. Please stop reading even though I have been instructed, as a follower of Jesus Christ, to share His word with the whole world":

Do you honestly believe that it will harm anyone to read the Bible?

Do you believe reading the word of God, even with a closed mind, is a disservice in some way?

[zteccc.livejournal.com]

Jesus tells a story about people who were hired for different wages to do the same job. They all got paid the same amount, but some worked a shorter time and thus earned less per hour. This passage addresses one of the complaints that people sometimes raise about Christianity. They say that a person who becomes a Christian early in life and lives a Christian life for all their years gets the same reward as a person who becomes a Christian late in life. They see this as unfair. It isn't. We all know the reward, and we all accept it. There is no greater reward for becoming a believer early or late. That said, the reward is pretty spectacular, nobody is going to feel that they didn't get enough.
Jesus again tells the Apostles what is going to happen to him in Jerusalem. He knows that he will be beaten and crucified, but will be resurrected.
James and John's mother wants her sons to be the most important in God's kingdom (what mother wouldn't?). The other apostles were angry with them, of course they probably wanted the same thing. She asks Jesus for this. Jesus says that they don't know what they're asking. Jesus said that those seats are for those for whom they have been prepared. Note that although Jesus is God and could give the seats to whomever he wants, the fact is that those assignments had already been made. Jesus is saying that his friendship with these men doesn't overrule the preparations that God (and Jesus) have made since the beginning. He explains that those who serve well on Earth, with humility and without self aggrandizement, will be placed in high positions in God's kingdom. Jesus says that he didn't come to be a domineering slave master, ruling from on high (which is what most people expected of a Messiah), but he came as a servant who is willing to die for his people (which is what any true leader, also termed "public servant", should be willing to do if necessary).
Two blind men heard Jesus was coming and shouted out for his help. The crowd tried to quiet them. Jesus felt compassion for them and healed them and they followed him. It didn't matter that he didn't know them and that they didn't know him they had only heard a few things of him. He saw someone in trouble and helped them because they believed that he could. Jesus could have been excused from helping others. He knew he was going to Jerusalem and would die there. Jericho is approximately 13 miles from Jerusalem, so it must have been pretty heavy on his mind, het he still stopped to help someone else.

[zteccc.livejournal.com]

Jesus sends his disciples to collect a donkey for him to ride into Jerusalem (as was prophesied). A king (or Messiah) would have been expected to make an entrance on a horse, or a sedan chair, perhaps a chariot or other great conveyance. The donkey symbolizes humility and servanthood rather than arrogance and domination.
Many people padded the way for him with clothing and branches. They cheered his arrival in Jerusalem. Most of these were the people who had been following him (Jesus had twelve apostles, but literally hundreds had been following him on his journey). They were overjoyed because the Messiah had arrived in Jerusalem as Ezekiel and Daniel had prophesied.
In comparison, the people in the city wondered who was arriving. The crowd (the people who were following him), answered. This would have brought recognition to the people in the city because they would have heard about Jesus' ministry for the prior three years.
Jesus found the money changers and merchants in the temple. He was incensed because they were cheating people with their practises. This is expanded in other gospels, but the money changers were exchanging the common currency for the "temple shekel" because that was the only offering acceptable in the temple. Of course the exchange rate was horrendous. Similarly, they would inspect sacrificial animals for blemishes or impurity. If they found one (which they always did), they would tell the penitent who had just traveled for days to get to Jerusalem, that their sacrifice wouldn't be acceptable, but of course they had a pre-approved one that they could sell them (for a huge fee). They'd even take the inferior one in trade. Of course they turned that one over the next day. That's why Jesus said that they had turned the temple into a den of thieves.
Jesus healed people in the temple. The priests and pharisees didn't like this and they didn't like people praising the Messiah. They were worried that they might lose their jobs because the Messiah either might not need them, or more likely, would recognize the way they had been hypocritical about their positions and responsibilities.

[zteccc.livejournal.com]

Fig trees, in the spring, bear fruit that is ripe by the time that they become leafy. The leaves signify that edible fruit should be on the tree. This tree was not bearing fruit which would indicate a problem with the tree. Such a tree would be barren, possibly forever, but at least for the remainder of the year. The tree appeared to be fruitful, but was useless. This is much like people who appear to be Godly (religious), they go to church, do good things, etc. but who only go through the motions and there is no substance; no fruit. Jesus was making a point about such people in cursing the tree. A further point is made about faith when he said that anyone could do such things with enough faith, even move a mountain (although, really, why would we want to?).
Jesus was challenged by the church leaders as to his authority to work miracles and teach (remember, he wasn't just reciting the Law, but was instead giving a better way of living and following God). Jesus asked them who gave John the Baptist his authority. They were stuck because they didn't follow John, but knew that the people did so they would have a revolt if they said that John had no authority from God, but if John did have such authority then they would have had to follow John. They instead said that they didn't know where John's authority came from (they dodged the question). Jesus said then that he wouldn't tell them who gave his authority. Jesus knew that they knew the answer, God, and he knew why they wouldn't answer, because it would show them as hypocrites, so by saying that he wouldn't tell them, he made it clear to them that he knew that for the same reasons that they evaded the question, they wouldn't accept his authority from God.
Jesus tells a parable about two sons. The first who refused to work, but then later did work, represented a good son who at one time strayed. The second, who agreed to work, but didn't, represented a bad son. The parallel is to the church leaders who had abandoned any work for God that they were supposed to do. Jesus said that the sinners who later came to follow Jesus would get to the kingdom of God, but the priests might not make it because they didn't truly believe.
The parable about the landowner and the vineyard is about God, the priests and Jesus. God built the vineyard (the Earth and its people). The priests are the workers who rented out the vineyard and worked it. The owner deserved his portion of the harvest (it is the owner's land and that was part of the agreement), so he sent servants (the prophets) to remind the renters of the agreement, but the servants were mistreated and killed. The owner sends his son (Jesus) hoping they would respect him, but they decided to kill him as well so they could keep their spoils. Jesus asks the religious leaders what the owner (God) will do when he comes. The leaders say that the owner will kill the renters.
Jesus says that because of their actions and lack of faith, the priests will not be in God's kingdom but instead to believers. The Pharisees and priests then want to arrest Jesus, but don't, for now, because they fear the people (the large crowd that came with Jesus and the people in Jerusalem that had become his followers).

Re: if your seriously conserding reading the bible...

[hypatiaslore.livejournal.com]

I have read the bible many times over. I was merely offering another alternative for discussion, not advice. No one has implanted any "ideas" in me about the bible. I just thought it was an interesting way of looking at this particular fable.

Re: Please Stop Reading

[hypatiaslore.livejournal.com]

I am still not understanding your intent by telling a person to stop reading the bible. Just because she is not coming to the same conclusions that you came to, how does that do a disservice to her or anyone by her giving her honest opinion about what she reads?

She's being real here. What possible motivation does she have otherwise? You think that she is mocking God just because she disagrees with him? Why bother giving me a brain at all and a choice of free will if I'm allowed to disagree with every mind in existence except for His? What if I just simply disagree with God's morality? That's not mocking him. That's making a decision.

Re: Please Stop Reading

[wolfpurplemoon]

You tell me to read your comment but you've obviously not read my disclaimer (try visiting: http://community.livejournal.com/wolfbiblemoon/profile), I definitely don't talk like I get what the text means to the believer because I've never been one. As I don't have much prior experience of the text I'm just writing about what it appears to mean from my point of view, if what I come up with from just reading the text is wrong then you're welcome to correct me.

And if disagreeing with the bible is belittling it, then I'm very sorry but no idea has the right to 100% protected from disagreement or criticism.

Re: Please Stop Reading

[wolfpurplemoon]

I think this God fellow must be quite thin skinned if a little disagreement or even mocking can harm him or if he needs the protection of his believers.

I also think you just strayed into silencing free speech territory there by saying I have the right to read but not the right to comment on what I've read, I would never tell a believer they have no right to talk about the bible because I disagree with their views.