Proverbs 30-31

[wolfpurplemoon]

Here we have five questions that apparently show it is "absurd for a mere mortal to think that he can explain God’s work or compare himself to God" (annotation in a pro-Christian version of the bible):

Who has ascended into heaven, and then descended? Depends on your definition of heaven I guess, if it just means the sky (the heavens) then quite a lot of people have now been up and back from the air, and from space, a feat unthinkable in the time this was written.
Who has gathered up the winds in his fists? Meaning he has control over the forces of nature. Well, we may actually have managed that unintentionally through climate change, and even if we can't control them we know all the forces and processes behind the weather and volcanoes/earthquakes so we don't need to explain it all with God
Who has bound up the waters in his cloak? Again, we know the processes behind cloud development and we have the ability to cause a cloud to rain.
Who has established all the ends of the earth? Also, we know the processes that formed the Earth, so we don't need to explain it with God
What is his name, and what is his son’s name? I'm not sure what this proves, I don't know the names of most of the people on Earth, or their sons, but that doesn't make them God.

And apparently you can't add to or change the words of God, so all that stuff that noone follows anymore should be followed to the letter, it really is all or nothing with this scripture stuff, otherwise you are a liar.

I guess every generation since records began has been rebellious against their parents: There is a generation who curse their fathers and do not bless their mothers.

The rest of Proverb 30 is made up of various lists, we have things that a particular sage can't understand or finds so wondrous that they must be from God, and then some small but amazing things (apparently ants have no strength, in fact they can each carry many times their own body weight), and finally some magnificent animals, similar to a king with his army.

Apparently it is a good thing to give needy people strong drinks so they can forget their sorrows, but also speaking up on their behalf.

Now a list of virtues that are very hard to find in a woman, this woman sounds very independent (growing a vineyard from her own income) and respected in her community and she runs an efficient and loving household while her husband sits with the elders. It's not clear why she needs this husband of hers, especially as she is to get credit for her own work.

Looks like I made up for yesterday's entry!

Comments

[kevinswitzer.livejournal.com]

Hi Amy,
I'm going to answer in biblical thought here:

The biblical definition of "the heavens" is the paradise you go to after death... not the sky.

Although we can explain the reasons behind weather... can we describe the reasons behind the reasons? For example, we know that storms happen when two fronts collide... but what caused the fronts?

And sure, we have the ability to cause a cloud to rain... but we didn't ALWAYS have that ability. Clouds just did it. And before we figured it out, there is something behind the nature.

We're not supposed to change the words of God. But we can interpret them in different ways. Quite often, what I see is that people interpret them to suit their needs, or more often say, "well, that was written a long time ago when things were different." For example, the whole argument about homosexuality. But if you're really going to judge people and say homosexuality being a sin, you have to take a look at yourself and see the sin in your own life. Such as... the bible says not to shave your sideburns, or wear clothes made of two different fabrics. So yeah... everyone is sinning in terms of the bible.

One thing I'm noticing is that you are taking the bible very literally, which I can understand. But, from my experience, the bible isn't written literally. My fear is that by reading it literally, you're thinking that the writers of the bible (or the followers of Christ) are complete idiots.

[wolfpurplemoon]

Heaven: Well noone has ever come back from being truly dead so I guess that noone has ever 'descended from heaven', that being said, I've not noticed God popping by either.

The weather: I think meteorologists and other scientists have worked out what causes all aspects of the weather, we might not be able to predict exactly what all those forces will produce at any given moment but we know why and what the causes are. We also know why the sky is blue and what causes rainbows.

Making clouds rain: If we went back to biblical times and used our ability to make the clouds rain they'd probably think it was magic. And the verse was declaring these questions as five wonders that no human could ever reproduce, which is no longer true.

I wouldn't say the writers of the bible were idiots in fact these people were probably the great thinkers of their time. I understand the mindset behind wanting to find out how our world works and when something seems to have no explanation there was a time when a higher power would have seemed the logical answer. But we now have a much greater knowledge of our universe and we shouldn't put God in the gaps that remain instead of continuing to look further and deeper to advance our understanding of everything around us.

I do agree that I'm very literal, but the bible does swing between stuff that's supposed to be true and things that are apparently not to be taken as truth, which is hard to follow to be honest, so I just assume that within the narrative it is all true.

[kevinswitzer.livejournal.com]

Well, Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead. And how do you expect God to pop by? A giant hand from the sky?

[robyrt.livejournal.com]

Fun fact: Proverbs 31 is the only ancient Near Eastern example of a mother's advice. This is a remarkably progressive view of the ideal woman.

Interesting to read your thoughts

[(Anonymous)]

Proverbs 31 26-31 New living translation

26 When she speaks, her words are wise,
and she gives instructions with kindness.
(Wisdom that comes from God, not of her own fleshly or selfish opinions. So her words bring life to her family)


27 She carefully watches everything in her household
and suffers nothing from laziness.
(She works hard as most mothers do or should)

28 Her children stand and bless her.
Her husband praises her:
(They would never publicly trash their mom, and the husband loves her as a man should properly love and protect his wife)


29 “There are many virtuous and capable women in the world,
but you surpass them all!”
(He is in such awe of his precious wife no other woman is ever going to be of his desire. Not even to flirt much less cheat)

30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last;
but a woman who fears the Lord will be greatly praised.
(Speaks for itself)


31 Reward her for all she has done.
Let her deeds publicly declare her praise.
(Never talking lustfuly about a woman passing by or detailing the intimate moments shared between man and his wife in the bedroom)

These are a few of my thought. I used to be a terrible husband and man before I came to know the Lord. Jesus transformed me from the inside out.

Thanks,
Aaron
amsjones@ymail.com

Re: Interesting to read your thoughts

[wolfpurplemoon]

I worry about people who aren't able to just be good people without turning to God or Jesus. If the only reason you don't do bad things is because God is watching you then that's not true morality at all.

Re: Interesting to read your thoughts

[aaron jones (from livejournal.com)]

I didn't only do bad things. But I was far from God. And being transformed through Christ has softened my heart to a point where doing the next right thing and standing up for what's right is 100% priority. Has nothing to do with God is watching. Has to do with I'm a changed person with the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling inside me. Through Christ I am 100% good. He makes me Good and true. And if I'm not I submit to his authority.

Re: Interesting to read your thoughts

[jeremy roeder (from livejournal.com)]

Whether one is good or bad, it still does not them a world of good if they do not believe in Jesus Christ dying on the cross and rising from the dead 3 days later. I saw on another post talking about not seeing Jesus rising from the dead. Have I ever seen Jesus physically? No. Does that mean that he is non-existent, absolutely not. I can say all day long that I don't believe nor have I seen gravity, but that does not stop me from hitting the ground if I jump off my house. When you go to sit in a chair, how much do you think about it before you do so? Do you constantly question if the chair will hold you or not? Most likely not. You have faith in the chair, and you have faith and just know that gravity exists, much like Jesus Christ. You do not always have to see to believe. I am really not sure how you believe the world came to be, but if it is through evolution, the Big Bang Theory, etc...explain to how this immaculte earth could just come together. If I took a watch completely apart and through all the contents into a bag, then proceeded to shake the bag for a billion years, what would happen? Would the watch magically be restored? Highly unlikely. If this can not happen with a watch, then how on earth could it happen to the world? When you look at a buiding, you know that there has to be a builder..the bricks did not just come together and make the building itself. The same goes with a painting, there must be a painter, right? Walk outside and look around, a beautiful world, so many thing of all shapes and sizes, well just like the building needed a builder and the painting a painter, this world needed a Creator. Hopefully you will find some more proof of the living God in your journey reading through the Bible. God bless you friend.

Re: Interesting to read your thoughts

[wolfpurplemoon]

Well done for rolling out every single tired old creationist argument as if you just thought of it!

Re: Interesting to read your thoughts

[jeremy roeder (from livejournal.com)]

Lol. To be honest, my intention is not to argue. Ultimately your belief is your belief. The only sad thing is if what you believe is right then your good and set for eternity, however, if what the Bible states is true and very easily logically to believe and see, then you my friend have everything to lose. Where are you right now in your readings by the way?

Re: Interesting to read your thoughts

[wolfpurplemoon]

And then you bring out Pascal's Wager just like everyone else, is there some sort of handbook for debating non-believers that you guys all have?

Re: Interesting to read your thoughts

[jeremy roeder (from livejournal.com)]

And if I mayb ask you a question. Why is what I said an argument? I simply am asking you questions that you or anyone else that has zero belief in God can not answer. If you can, with all do respect, answer them, if not on here, then at least when your at home by yourself. Try to make sense of evolutuion. When I make reference to the watch in the bag, that is essentially what an atheist believes. The world just came to be some how through time..if a world can do it, then surely one can do it with a watch. Maybe I will check youtube for that..God bless you in your endeavors.

Re: Interesting to read your thoughts

[wolfpurplemoon]

An argument is just a position you take in a debate, I didn't mean that you were being argumentative.

The questions you ask are not original, and it's not that they can't be answered, because believe me they've been rebutted many times before, but they are questions based on misunderstanding and misrepresentation of science and its theories.