Ezekiel 18-20

[wolfpurplemoon]

God has decided that the children shouldn't suffer for the sins of their parents any longer, why did he say that they should before? This sort of indecisiveness doesn't seem right in an all-knowing deity.

OK, so let me get this straight, a wicked person will die/suffer for their sins, unless they decide to turn away from their sin and do what is just. So, how long can you spend being sinful before the punishment kicks in, because once you're dead you're not going to be able to turn from your sin and become righteous, surely. And just how righteous do you have to become and how long for in order to correct the wrong God thinks you committed?

I haven't even got that straight and now apparently if you're righteous and then start being wicked then you'll die and your righteous acts are not taken into account, which makes even less sense. So, the moral of the tale seems to be, start out bad and become good, not the other way round. I agree with the house of Israel that this is unjust, and God's answer to that charge is not actually an answer because he just calls them unjust back and assures them he takes no pleasure in the deaths of anyone, wicked or good.

Comments

Re: If we reject God's forgiveness we die physically and spiritually?

[wolfpurplemoon]

You guys are having an interesting debate here, though I still can't get my head around this whole salvation/forgiveness thing, your examples help somewhat.

I did want to pick up on this though:

...the Old Testament (old covenant) which has been superseded (as was intended all along)

If God intended 'all along' to totally change his mind about who he wants to save and how then what was the point of all the rules he handed down and with keeping all the stuff from the Old Testament? It makes him look pretty indecisive and flaky.

From the point of view of there being no God though it makes perfect sense, because I can see that the society evolved greatly over the time frame of the bible and the old rules no longer applied so new ones were written, but if God is supposed to be all-knowing and behind it all then I just don't get it.

Re: If we reject God's forgiveness we die physically and spiritually?

[zteccc.livejournal.com]

The forgiveness/salvation thing in a (big) nutshell:
If we sin (and all of us do), then we are incapable of being in God's direct presence (going to Heaven) because that sin taints our spirit. God will not tolerate the sin in God's presence. God knew that we would sin, so God provided a way for us to free ourselves of the taint. This is God's Compassion (seeing someone who needs help, and wanting to help them) and Mercy (giving someone a second chance, even if they don't deserve it). This is expressed in God's forgiveness of our sins (if our sins were written down in a list, then forgiveness is effectively erasing them so that they never existed).
In the Christian faith, that forgiveness is offered as a free gift. If we believe (with all of our heart and mind) that Jesus is Lord (one of power and authority in our lives, effectively that Jesus is God) and we believe that Jesus was raised from the dead (evidence of this is coming, in the New Testament), then we have that forgiveness for all sins, past, present and future.
God doesn't force this forgiveness on anyone (forcing us would not be Love). Some do not want it. Some do not want to go to Heaven even knowing that the alternative isn't going to be pretty. I don't understand fully why someone would make such a choice, but that is part of God's Love, that God doesn't control us, but lets us make our own decisions. God provides us with all of the information needed, and we are expected to come to a decision.

God didn't change his mind about who God wants to save, or how. Rather the Old Testament is setting the stage so to speak. As you've seen in my conversation with Darryl, people think of sin as something that builds up in an account, as a debt to be repaid. This is a very natural human reasoning. Of course with debts, there is a human way to get past them, one simply pays the bill. Human beings can accomplish this. God had Moses set up such a system with the Law and the covenant. It was a system not too different from what humans had in other neighboring religions, and I suspect it is what Moses (who was educated as a prince in Egypt and taught Egyptian religion) influenced greatly in the setup. It served its purpose as an object lesson, that humans, even with clear rules and a covenant that worked, wouldn't be able to stick with it and live a sinless life on their own. The Law and the covenant are effectively a way to "earn" one's way into Heaven by following rules (sacrifices, with a proper heart attitude, are the human attempt to "pay" the sin debt). Of course we see how well that went as we've been reading in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, people simply decided not to follow the covenant (except for the sacrifices with an improper attitude) and willfully embraced their sins.
The framework of the old covenant, however was necessary for us to understand Jesus' message. The New Testament supersedes the Old Testament after human beings broke the covenant and rendered it void. In comparison to the Old Testament covenant, which relied on human attempts to follow laws and do things, the New Testament is infinitely easier. Salvation/forgiveness is a gift, freely offered if we simply accept it.

-- Jeff